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+--- Thread: Can we talk about GS and Mass unsummon? (/showthread.php?tid=11319)
Can we talk about GS and Mass unsummon? - Shujin - 07-19-2024
I do not know why this combo is still alive after so long, but its easily the most unfair tactical nuke in the game and an easy "I win" button against 90% of the builds. there is almost no counterplay, aside from very specific highly mobile or ranged units (Plus points for the MG with unsummon ability), assuming the arena you fight in is even big enough. Which it's usually not if the summoner is smart enough to stay in the middle of the map and has something like swap position.
Lets break down why its so unfair.
The Build:
there are a couple of variations for it, but usually you build a classic tanky GS. Your equipment for the most part is whatever you want, and weapons are either 2 Sthenno's for protection ignoring (not just m.armor) 10+25%youkai level acid damage*2 (acid being the hardest to resist element, so everyone is taking atleast 40ish damage from this) per summon or the tandem dagger set, which however needs way more dedicated build and I therefore find less problematic.
Thats basically it already, you are good to go and ruin everyones day. Its really braindead stupid and easy to play. Needs 0 stat investment for its damage, and its autohit, so you can not build Ski entirely and be fine for being even tankier.
Your Basic Gameplan:
You are usually slower than your opponents, so you are in a good position to adjust depending on what your opponent does but generally, your gameplan is moving close to the middle and just setting up your summons. If the opponent is close enough? Bully him with pushing him around with the summons and deal 40-50 Damage per summon in an AoE, meaning this is also very destructive in teamfights. In a small arena, the opponent usually has barely a way to not get hit by this eventually. So you are comfortably setting up your nuke and put pressure on your opponent at the same time.
So different scenarios can play here:
1.) If your opponent has no ways of unsommoning your youkai, they are very unlikely to have enough AoE DPS to murder any of the youkai, or kill like one or two at best. if the are foolish enough to stand their ground to attempt and kill them (or attack the Tanky summoner). GG you win! all your Youkai attack the person, no matter if tank or Dodgy, you will deal damage to them with either evasion ignores from the youkai, or just by attacking him, while getting you summons all in a nice cluster around them. Summon a few extra summons for them to explode on, depending on how much HP they have, you either do that at turn 2 or sometimes if its squishy dodgies you have enough summons by turn 1 to probably kill them or make them a nonethreat atleast. Either way you summon enough so that you still have 3 M left for impact dismiss and skip so all your youkai get into position. Then they get hit after all the chip damage from the whips+all your already summoned youkais attacks for Dimension Resonance damage. Undodgeable 60 elemental damage (based on youkai) which increases by 60 per unsommoned youkai to a maximum of 300 damage to which point its no longer icnreasing but still hits you for 300 per youkai unsommoned. tanks have it a little easier against this one, but dodgies are instantly dead. GG they never stood a chance.
2.) You are smart and get the fuck away from the youkai. If you are melee without ranged options, GG you are now on the defensive at the constant threat of being nuked. If you are ranged you have atleast the abillity to fight back a bit. But thats also playing into the GS's hands. They can just keep setting up an even bigger nuke and wait it out, they might lose a youkai or two during this (though tanky youkai aren't easy to kill in one round), but they nuke overall will still have grown in strength. And when the summoner feels ready to kill them, they use either Skip-> Let all youkai more into the target if needed with double move, plus points if your sub class is tactician and you march ordered them, so they WILL reach the target for certain-> Your turn again and you mass unsummon, all without giving the other person even a chance to react to this.
or if they are a variation with acess to swap position-> use that-> Skip-> same as above just that you can probably land more youkai skills in for even more damage.
3.)If the map is big enough there is actually a small chance for you, if you are highly mobile to get away and kite around this. but one mistake and you are done for. and if the Gs is smart they will be able to force it usually. gust trap does not work however, cause the GS probably just uses wind elemental, and so it backfires to you. same with trying to hide behind cinder tiles. The fire elemental basically just kills you. Ice tiles work somewhat and I assume water too, but you aren't going to set up enough of those to matter.
4.) MG has obviously the biggest advantage here, cause they can just get rid of the incoming nuke entirely.
So yeah, no matter what you do against this, the GS has you always in a pinch. Rushing down the GS? Good luck trying to rush down a Tanky GS, while staying out of nuke range. And even if you do, you still get double turned by all the remaining youkai.
So this is already highly unfair. But wait! there is more!
In a Teamfight, if you have someone set up a Solsphere, or some cinder tiles, you can also add its damage for EACH summon as they bully push you across those tiles. Think your damage is not enough? Have you heard of Deathknighting or Black spirits to further amplify the damage?
What I am trying to say is, the above scenario, which is already nuking the majority of people, is not even nearly its final form. Its Cheap, It has nearly no counterplay, and frankly? Its braindead simple and unfun. If you do not have a specific build to counter that specifically you can already tell from the start of the fight. "Yeah nah, I lost." no matter how well you play.
SO! how do we fix that? I propose something, that sounds like a massive nerf, but I honestly think it would still be OP actually.
Dimension Resonance:
Half its damage. Make it dodgeable.
It will still be probably nuking dodiges cause of the nature of how summoners work. But atleast then people can actually realistcally make a mistake and non insta die. There are still all the shenanigans you can do with field tiles and push bullying, and the 50ish damage per summon are crippling enough.
I can't be the only one who thinks that this is cheap and Overpowered.
RE: Can we talk about GS and Mass unsummon? - Ray2064 - 07-19-2024
i want lumi hanged i dont really care about his builds i just dont like him
RE: Can we talk about GS and Mass unsummon? - Rendar - 07-19-2024
It's really weird.
Bonder is 'What if I picked up a gun and started shooting alongside my pokemon?"
Shapeshifter is 'What if I AM a pokemon?"
Grand Summoner is 'What if I had an entire PC box of pokemon. And also armed them with bombs?'
Grand Summoner's entire game plan is throwing out a ton of youkai, and getting them to mess people up. Hell. Tandem Dagger set up is obscene, and I looked to Lolzy and the poor bastard's got an entire set up with tandem dagger and solsphere that does 3k+ damage to Prinny. 1.8k of which wasn't even the tandem daggers themself.
Sthenno GS tactical Nuke is just. Obscene. And there's genuinely nothing Dodgies can do about it if they aren't hyper-mobile and able to attack from anywhere on the map. The only counters to this specific build is just outright using Magic Gunner or Archer with Adversity Annhilator. But I genuinely do not think "You have to use a specific item to be able to stand a fighting chance." is, at all, healthy for the game.
RE: Can we talk about GS and Mass unsummon? - Shujin - 07-19-2024
What the actual fuck?
Just a clarification, this isn't about anyone specifically. I just know of these kind of builds for ages, in different variations. Tandem Dagger being one of them with potential higher damage output (free momentum from crits=more summons+the dmage from the crits and something like brineblade) for example. I just think that one atlesat has a high stat investment to work and is hard to doomwall.
Either way, This is NOT an post attacking any people or their builds. Its just getting rid of something that has been OP for a very, very long time now, and have been recently reminded of its existence again.
RE: Can we talk about GS and Mass unsummon? - Rendar - 07-19-2024
Oh. I'm not attacking Lolzy. He just sent me a hypothetical build (because this man is a madlad) and was like "This is crazy" and I was just staring at the damage.
RE: Can we talk about GS and Mass unsummon? - Shujin - 07-19-2024
I was more concerned about the deathwish for Lumi.
RE: Can we talk about GS and Mass unsummon? - Ray2064 - 07-19-2024
(07-19-2024, 12:26 PM)Shujin Wrote: I was more concerned about the deathwish for Lumi.Fuck you Lumi (it's all in banter I do not actually wish for well known player Luminous Phantom to cease their cardiac functions)
In more seriousness, if I were to add my two cents, the thing that frustrates e the most about the G.S matchup (and summoner classes in general) would be the problems spanned from the current way the turn order functions, somewhat punishing you for doing...anything ?
If you somehow get past the summoner's bulk and kill them, you're rewarded with...A dozen of Youkais or so coming to attack you before you can act, not to mention the other things related to Skip turn (I'm also frustrated with this regarding Engi but that's another issue)
If not, then...enjoy the mass unsummon, I guess. It kind of just feels like an absolute win-win scenario for the summoner unless you've serious AOE potential of sorts, and god forbid there's a Youkai across the mix that can reflect it and punish you for using it even then.
RE: Can we talk about GS and Mass unsummon? - Shujin - 07-19-2024
Oh, It was a joke, gotcha. The double turn nonesense is also something I am unhappy about. My solution towards it would be:
"If the summoner is dead at the start of the turn, all youkai are unsummoned." This would allow for still one turn of them to do something, but atleast no longer double turn people. Or flat unsummon upon summoner defeat.
RE: Can we talk about GS and Mass unsummon? - Rendar - 07-19-2024
Oh right. I forgot just how to change this.
Sthenno should probably have a twice-per-turn clause on them. Maybe even just once per turn, considering it's Free Damage. Alternatively, giving them a Hit Check.
Furthermore, the enhanced version of Chain Unsummon/Impact Dismiss/Whatever it's called exactly should be Dodgeable. Unsure why a "Upwards of 1200 damage attack" under right circumstances is evade ignore, but here we are.
RE: Can we talk about GS and Mass unsummon? - Poruku - 07-19-2024
Right now if you manage to kill the summoner and go to next turn, all the youkai will get a turn on you automatically even if you were first in turn order last time. Meaning you can get two turned by a whole army and it only costs some fp from the summoner's corpse.
If defeating the summoner worked it would be a start. But I also think honestly that summons as a whole need a nerf.
The real issue with summoner imo isn't even the unsummon. Chain unsummon is just the cherry on top that destroys everyone. Problem is that all those youkai you can throw out deal considerable damage especially thinks like ascended suzaku that can do two evade ignoring attacks in a row. If you're a tank, forget it, you take the attacks of like 7 enemies ganking you and take easily half your hp in a turn if you aren't kiting. And if you're evade, even if you manage to survive against the whirlpools and barrage of attacks, you just die to chain unsummon.
If the youkai themselves were not so oppressive, it would be less bad. Though chain unsummon is also strong. Three ascended youkai on their own can defeat most builds. You just need to slap on absorb energy or something. It's crazy
I don't even know where to start with summoner balance, it's insanely good all around