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+--- Thread: Kicking it down a notch (/showthread.php?tid=1172)
Kicking it down a notch - Jay - 04-27-2015
Accellia vs Excel Weapons
- Autohit vs Hit Check
- 75% per charge vs 50% per charge
- No WPN Power vs WPN Power
- Shoe slot vs Weapon slot
Current Formula - 75% per charge
(60*3.75)-10 = 215 damage
Changed Formula - 30% per charge
(60*1.90)-10 = 104 damage
Average strength of 60, average dodger's defense of 10.
There is so much to say about this single item. It became the unnecessary medium that quite literally stomps standard dodgers. I've no clue how it somehow ended with -75%- scaling per charge, but the logic that 'you're using 3M anyway' is a major source of this game's imbalance. Just because someone charges, doesn't mean their momentum has to be (over)compensated for. And it's often we see these type of items (BiS - Best in slot) having zero player input before implementation. Not to completely steer the blame on Dev, because it also seems like most voices are hush-hush about these things. Flipping defense before the scaling will still severely harm standard dodgers, and the new scaling balances the job without butchering the standard formula. As it stands now, there is little to no incentive for a character with decent strength to not wear these. The excel series are items, NOT core skills, and should be treated as options. And again, this is a shoe slot, what exactly should it be compensating for?
Re: Kicking it down a notch - Trexmaster - 04-27-2015
All you're really losing is some resists or knockback immunity.
Even without str, it can still give up to +3 Move (which you can charge up prior to fights and stack duration on still, apparently).
Really the only reason you wouldn't use them is if you already possess autohits that can deal as much damage if not more for the momentum you're spending.
Personally I'd say docking it to the original 50% would be fair enough, as it's already lacking weapon power.
Re: Kicking it down a notch - Slydria - 04-27-2015
I think lowering it back to 50% is fine, 30% may be a little too far. The problem to me is part Accelia having higher charge damage than the Excel Weapons which is silly for an autohit and part issue with the automatic charging set-up of Shock Collar and Conversion Gloves but there's already a thread for that so I won't go any further into it. (http://www.neus-projects.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1030)
Re: Kicking it down a notch - Jay - 04-27-2015
The mere fact that it is an autohit in the shoe slot justifies the reason why it's 30% as opposed to 40% or 50%. And Slydria mentioned, the shock collar and conversion combination is a thing. But above all else, you have two weapon slots to use whatever you want. This item shouldn't have even been a thing, but I digress.
Quote:Personally I'd say docking it to the original 50% would be fair enough, as it's already lacking weapon power.This shoe slot item should not be trying to compensate or be comparable to the excel weapons to begin with.
Re: Kicking it down a notch - Trexmaster - 04-27-2015
I can't really argue against that, since, it really -shouldn't- be what is essentially a weapon you can equip in your shoe slot.
Though making it so the the kick option for it is borderline useless compared to what other options are available doesn't seem right.
I'd honestly be all for making it so instead of dealing extra damage, it just knocks back further, or that and the reduced charge bonus.
I mean, it already has the use of being able to grant extra move for charges, but if it's going to affect the Kick trait, it should have a reason to be used past wasting charges to avoid getting spirit pained with your own excel weapon. Not saying it's -completely- useless, but the scenarios where it'd be the most useful option are slim to none with those changes, and I don't like items in the game that are situational to the point of uselessness.
Re: Kicking it down a notch - Slydria - 04-27-2015
I think you guys forgetting about the other benefits an Excel Weapon has over Kick.
Which are:
- The ability to synergize with skills that use basic attacks. (Power Gradation, Geldoren, Hanging, etc.)
- The bonus effects gained from various sources. Such as bonus damage from material, benefits from class Skills (i.e. Elangrave), bonus damage from Talents.
- The ability to inflict Critical Hits for +50% damage on top of the already present +50-150% Damage.
Re: Kicking it down a notch - Jay - 04-27-2015
"[url=http://www.neus-projects.net/viewtopic.php?p=6867#p6867 Wrote:Slydria » Mon Apr 27, 2015 1:51 pm[/url]"]I think you guys forgetting about the other benefits an Excel Weapon has over Kick.No, I'm not forgetting. And there's a different thread trying to diminish the potency of excel weapons. Again, this is a shoe slot that's an entirely higher tier than any other footwear. I'm glad you brought all of that up, because this 75% buff was an attempt to compensate for all this begin with. And either way, I don't think an overpowered -weapon- with its respective perks justifies keeping this imbalanced item the way it is. Leaving that for another thread because tl;dr, this thread's objective prioritizes Accellia's balance.
Which are:
- The ability to synergize with skills that use basic attacks. (Power Gradation, Geldoren, Hanging, etc.)
- The bonus effects gained from various sources. Such as bonus damage from material, benefits from class Skills (i.e. Elangrave), bonus damage from Talents.
- The ability to inflict Critical Hits for +50% damage on top of the already present +50-150% Damage.
"[url=http://www.neus-projects.net/viewtopic.php?p=6865#p6865 Wrote:Trexmaster » Mon Apr 27, 2015 1:27 pm[/url]"]Though making it so the the kick option for it is borderline useless compared to what other options are available doesn't seem right.
As the only item of its kind taking up a shoe slot, it's difficult to assert that it'd be borderline useless to the current options. It amplifies an autohit that's entirely separate from class options.
Quote: I'd honestly be all for making it so instead of dealing extra damage, it just knocks back further, or that and the reduced charge bonus.
I wouldn't go that far. But that mention does bring up an idea.
Quote: I mean, it already has the use of being able to grant extra move for charges, but if it's going to affect the Kick trait, it should have a reason to be used past wasting charges to avoid getting spirit pained with your own excel weapon. Not saying it's -completely- useless, but the scenarios where it'd be the most useful option are slim to none with those changes, and I don't like items in the game that are situational to the point of uselessness.There are plenty of options simply because you have two weapon slots at your disposal. And as a shoe slot that scales an autohit's damage? There isn't any current options that break that kind of ground. A nerf will make this more of an option like the others, not a no-brainer for nearly every situation. It should be in the same league as wearing a resistance footwear against a mage when you already have an autohit at your disposal.
I'm thinking that if the objective is utilizing kick's function and not just the damage-- nerf the scale to 30% or 40% with additional knock-back per charge. So a 60 damage kick with three charges translates to (60*2.2)-DEF and four knock-back.
Re: Kicking it down a notch - Slydria - 04-27-2015
The point I was trying to make was that we shouldn't nerf Accelia too harshly so that it becomes an unviable option compared to the Weapons.
Kick is an autohit but Excel Weapons can inflict significantly more damage. (Yes, even with the 75% Scaling from Kick but I do agree that 75% is too much anyway.)
Math:
Re: Kicking it down a notch - Neus - 04-28-2015
"Jay" Wrote:Average strength of 60, average dodger's defense of 10.
You're forgetting armor defense. And if you're not running any sort of defense on your armor and your base defense is pitiful then yeah, you're going to get wrecked by autohits. Accelia is hardly unique for that purpose.
"[url=http://www.neus-projects.net/viewtopic.php?p=6858#p6858 Wrote:Jay » Mon Apr 27, 2015 7:27 pm[/url]"]And it's often we see these type of items (BiS - Best in slot) having zero player input before implementation.
Why would I ever ask players for input before implementation? I can give you a list of opinions I would get that would be extremely unhelpful.
1) It sucks.
2) Too good (because it's new/different).
3) Why do [x] when you can just do [different idea that has nothing to do with the original idea at all]?
Any opinion I could get on it would be maybe 50% accurate at best, not to mention it would slow down development unnecessarily, and some peoples' opinions aren't worth listening to, to begin with. Unless you've actually, I don't know, experienced the item/whatever for yourself, then your opinion means jack. Even my opinion on something is not going to be accurate at the time of implementation all the time, even if I have logic to back up the reasons why it is what it is, which is why many numerous times, things get adjusted. Just to add to my point, when Accelia was first found in-game, there were so many outcries of 'this item is garbage' that you'd think there was an echo in the chatbox.
"Trex" Wrote:I can't really argue against that, since, it really -shouldn't- be what is essentially a weapon you can equip in your shoe slot.
You mean the entire point and idea behind the item? The boots that are made for attacking shouldn't be a weapon?
Re: Kicking it down a notch - Jay - 04-28-2015
"[url=http://neus-projects.net/viewtopic.php?p=6876#p6876 Wrote:Neus » Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:20 pm[/url]"]No dodger is flaunting more than +10-12 additional defense from 'armor defense'. And if you want to bring in other factors, 60 strength is a basic accomplishment currently.
You're forgetting armor defense. And if you're not running any sort of defense on your armor and your base defense is pitiful then yeah, you're going to get wrecked by autohits. Accelia is hardly unique for that purpose.
Quote:Why would I ever ask players for input before implementation? I can give you a list of opinions I would get that would be extremely unhelpful.The comment was more entailing how you come up with certain things out of blue. Aka, it either ends disastrous or decent. For instance, looking at spiked threads effect (among other outdated shoes), it gives a whooping 6 or so piercing damage from kicks and offers knock-back immunity. I'd think the standard for 'damage-boosting kicks' would follow that flat formula to begin with.
1) It sucks.
2) Too good (because it's new/different).
3) Why do [x] when you can just do [different idea that has nothing to do with the original idea at all]?
Any opinion I could get on it would be maybe 50% accurate at best, not to mention it would slow down development unnecessarily, and some peoples' opinions aren't worth listening to, to begin with. Unless you've actually, I don't know, experienced the item/whatever for yourself, then your opinion means jack. Even my opinion on something is not going to be accurate at the time of implementation all the time, even if I have logic to back up the reasons why it is what it is, which is why many numerous times, things get adjusted. Just to add to my point, when Accelia was first found in-game, there were so many outcries of 'this item is garbage' that you'd think there was an echo in the chatbox.
Quote:You mean the entire point and idea behind the item? The boots that are made for attacking shouldn't be a weapon?No, no it shouldn't. It should be a supplementary damage dealer that doesn't outright replace, outdo, or even be a weapon. I hope that comment's not misinterpreted either (hint: Trex means the equivalent of a weapon slot). But oh well.