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Seriously, Buff Evokers (and LB) - MegaBlues - 06-23-2015
So, get this. All of the updates so far have worked to make Evoker one of the worst damage-dealing classes out there.
A Mind Charged, Point-Blank Isenshi with a 36 Power tome, 100 Will, Geomancy, and Evocation can be made to deal 130 damage. That's two and a half turns worth of Momentum, for what most classes can pull off in a single attack.
Guard exists, Wraithguard exists, elemental resistances exist, Evasion exists, Silence exists. Counters to magic are far too widespread and easy to obtain, and all of them stack perfectly without any hassle.
Trying to avoid resistances just -doesn't work-, because not only can you resist every element at the same time, but elemental resistances are only one of the multiple issues plaguing magic.
Trying to get a powerful spell off without HSDW up isn't possible, because if you're in range to hit them, they're in range to hit you just as hard, and break your invocation. And HSDW doesn't actually save you from using less momentum. It just lets you avoid wasting your momentum and FP getting your short-range spell broken.
So, really. No more crying "But they have burst damage!". They don't, and burst damage doesn't mean anything when other classes can deal 20 less damage four times in the same timespan.
No "But you can use another element!" Because another element will just get resisted.
Priest, Hexer, and Summoner can all deal more damage reliably than Evoker can, which is pathetic.
(Also, LBs are pretty bad-off too. Seriously. Give them some love. But considering how Evokers are supposed to be -the- nukes, it stands out so much worse.)
Re: Seriously, Buff Evokers (and LB) - Ranylyn - 06-23-2015
They can also be made to deal 1000+ damage. I don't see the issue. And "most classes can pull off 130 in a single attack? Oh, you're funny. so funny I forgot to laugh. Even my strongest non-evokers ever struggled to break 110 vs weaknesses at level 60. And that's with insane modifiers like High Faith God Rod.
Remember all that "omg buff charge mind" awhile back, because Charge mind is all an Evoker can do and fuck every single other spell? Forget limiting enemy movement via Famiuga, using Talyd to get more move for kiting, Explosion/Sear to limit where the enemy can safely move, and all that other stuff. Forget anything that isn't Charge mind. That is the mindset of the Evoker. And that mindset is bullshit. Better idea; Git Gud. If your invocations are getting broken, get more distance before starting them. If you're fighting an opponent who has high move and can knock you down, don't USE invocations! Every single other class is expected to adapt and adjust to their opponent, why should evokers just get a free pass?
Yes. magic has counters. And? You'd be amazed just how limiting magic counters actually can be. "No hassle?" You do realize that, for example, a summoner installing to protect against one element usually opens up a weakness to a different element, right? Evasion, Voidveil, and Wraithguard? Ghost and VA were designed to be Anti-magic classes, get over it. I'd be fully in favor of making guard only affect melee damage if it wasn't the only defense some classes have against being oneshot by evokers, and also didn't mean sacrficing another piece of gear for a more limited skillset.
I also see no issue with stacking elemental resist simply due to the fact that multiple pieces of gear compete for those slots. For example, if you're fighting a Hyattr Hexer, do you use the Fire resist boots, or the Darkness Resist boots? Or do you use the +Move boots to get in faster and wail on them? Do you take a red letter and risk opening yourself up to ice spells? Do you take a red letter AND Circle ring, negating two elements but taking up precious gear slots that could be used for other resists?
If your playstyle is dependant on HSDW, then why are you noit USING HSDW? That's like an MG not using Safety with Thunder Drive equipped and bitching about it. (Which amusingly is a real thing that has happened.)
They do indeed have burst damage. You're just playing badly.
Re: Seriously, Buff Evokers (and LB) - Kameron8 - 06-23-2015
Evokers get shafted by people who are prepared to fight them, and it only got a whole lot worse with Evasion. Voidveil should have been left alone, and evasion should never have touched magic in the first place. I agree with your post, fighting a geared out opponent with resistances as a mage is hellish. Fighting a similarly geared Void Assassin, especially if they're subbed Ghost, is like bringing a bendy straw to a gun fight. Uncharged spells will do under twenty damage, charged spells will hardly ever break eighty, and huge invocations might break one hundred and fifty if you're lucky. Meanwhile, you'll get backstabbed for at least that much, knocked down, then silenced.
Without either a max cap on how much can be resisted, a change to stacking reductions (like evasion, wraithguard, and resist items) or a reliable spell or item that allows you to penetrate or counteract 80% damage reduction, the 'damage class' is only doing damage in dungeons.
Also, in response to the post above. Evokers slaughter the unprepared, and get slaughtered by the prepared. This is far too polarizing, and not healthy. I don't care if there's 'anti magic classes', you should not walk into a fight with zero chance of winning because of classes alone. A kensei can still fight a Black Knight, even if they have a disadvantage. You cannot 'git gud' and overcome absurd damage reduction, unless gitting gud means changing your class and stats to VA/Ghost or a proper hard counter.
Re: Seriously, Buff Evokers (and LB) - Ranylyn - 06-23-2015
"[url=http://www.neus-projects.net/viewtopic.php?p=7992#p7992 Wrote:Kameron8 » Mon Jun 22, 2015 10:24 pm[/url]"]Also, in response to the post above. Evokers slaughter the unprepared, and get slaughtered by the prepared. This is far too polarizing, and not healthy. I don't care if there's 'anti magic classes', you should not walk into a fight with zero chance of winning because of classes alone. A kensei can still fight a Black Knight, even if they have a disadvantage. You cannot 'git gud' and overcome absurd damage reduction, unless gitting gud means changing your class and stats to VA/Ghost or a proper hard counter.
Let me use MG as an example.
Incredible damage output and ignores defenses. But very high dodge completely shuts it down since they're completel dependant on hit rolls. This makes Kensei the ultimate MG counter because of Blade Barrier + Yomidori vs Multihit guns, but any good dodger can really give them a hellish time. Completely destroys some classes, completely destroyed by others, sound familiar?
Sure, not all counters are as extreme, but counters like this stop classes from being too OP. yes, Evokers can be shut down by someone who's completely prepared as a VA/G with elemental resist gear, but considering how many classes they completely obliterate, it's not unfair.
Do I think the balance should be a bit better? It would be NICE, but considering the nature of the growth system and all, it's basically impossible. All that can be done is to make sure one class doesn't rule all. And I'm beyond glad that Evasion exists now, because even as a VA/G, I was oneshot by evokers in the past (WG being a chance and not a guarantee did me in.) And thats some bullshit.
Re: Seriously, Buff Evokers (and LB) - MegaBlues - 06-23-2015
Quote:They can also be made to deal 1000+ damage. I don't see the issue.
Please show me the last time you've seen an Evoker break one thousand damage.
Quote:And "most classes can pull off 130 in a single attack? Oh, you're funny. so funny I forgot to laugh. Even my strongest non-evokers ever struggled to break 110 vs weaknesses at level 60. And that's with insane modifiers like High Faith God Rod.
This is so wrong, it hurts. To end the fight where I tested that Isenshi, I got critted about five times in a row for more damage than I dealt each time. It's also highly known that Priests can get some of the highest spell power in the game, so, it's your own incompetence that's so hilarious.
Quote:Remember all that "omg buff charge mind" awhile back, because Charge mind is all an Evoker can do and fuck every single other spell? Forget limiting enemy movement via Famiuga, using Talyd to get more move for kiting, Explosion/Sear to limit where the enemy can safely move, and all that other stuff. Forget anything that isn't Charge mind. That is the mindset of the Evoker. And that mindset is bullshit. Better idea; Git Gud. If your invocations are getting broken, get more distance before starting them. If you're fighting an opponent who has high move and can knock you down, don't USE invocations! Every single other class is expected to adapt and adjust to their opponent, why should evokers just get a free pass?
All of this would be wonderful, if you could actually do any damage. Have fun wasting your FP doing absolutely nothing, then being cornered and cut down. And how are you going to get more distance while starting an invocation, while simultaneously hitting with it? If you're close enough to get in range, the enemy is close enough to get in range. And that means you're busted, especially due to the new Invocation talent change. Also, to mention Evokers -can't- adapt. The most adaption they have is the element they can smack the opponent with, considering that their spell's secondary effects are only more damage.
Quote:Yes. magic has counters. And? You'd be amazed just how limiting magic counters actually can be. "No hassle?" You do realize that, for example, a summoner installing to protect against one element usually opens up a weakness to a different element, right? Evasion, Voidveil, and Wraithguard? Ghost and VA were designed to be Anti-magic classes, get over it. I'd be fully in favor of making guard only affect melee damage if it wasn't the only defense some classes have against being oneshot by evokers, and also didn't mean sacrficing another piece of gear for a more limited skillset.
Having counters and "being able to be completely nullified by anyone who wants to" are two different things. Summoners have nothing to do with this, so please don't go off on tangents. BK is an anti-physical class, yet other classes have ways to deal with higher defense, and can still pull off a win. Evokers have no way to deal with combined elemental and statwise resistances. The only way you're going to get one-shot by an Evoker is if you have absolutely zero resistances, and run headlong into a charged spell with no health.
Quote:I also see no issue with stacking elemental resist simply due to the fact that multiple pieces of gear compete for those slots. For example, if you're fighting a Hyattr Hexer, do you use the Fire resist boots, or the Darkness Resist boots? Or do you use the +Move boots to get in faster and wail on them? Do you take a red letter and risk opening yourself up to ice spells? Do you take a red letter AND Circle ring, negating two elements but taking up precious gear slots that could be used for other resists?
This is dumb. You can resist every element at once, as I have stated. If the enemy cannot damage you, they cannot win.
Quote:If your playstyle is dependant on HSDW, then why are you noit USING HSDW? That's like an MG not using Safety with Thunder Drive equipped and bitching about it. (Which amusingly is a real thing that has happened.)
I don't see what this has to do with anything, honestly? I really can't respond at all, because, wow. Totally missing the point of how HDSW doesn't give much benefit at all for its FP cost and short duration.
Quote:They do indeed have burst damage. You're just playing badly.
Quote:A Mind Charged, Point-Blank Isenshi with a 36 Power tome, 100 Will, Geomancy, and Evocation can be made to deal 130 damage.
. . . You're wrong?
Re: Seriously, Buff Evokers (and LB) - Rendar - 06-23-2015
tbh. Evokers are bad and you should feel bad.
They absolutely murder the people who don't prepare properly. However they get killed by the people who do because they legitimately can't hurt them. At all. Sure, this may lead you to go "USE YOUR SUB CLASS NERD!" Most evokers are gimmicky nerds who can't.
Anyways, lower Evoker damage some, lower elemental resistances and the like, you'll lower the ablity to literally turn 500+ damage into 10. And make that 500 damage never occur to someone unprepared.
Re: Seriously, Buff Evokers (and LB) - Mivereous - 06-23-2015
Maybe give Evoker a way to lower enemy resistances, somehow. Or maybe a new item (8-9*) that can do so.
EDIT: Such as, lowering all resistances by 50% of their total, or lowering the highest resistance by 25%, to a maximum (minimum?) of 0%.
EDIT 2: Utility Skill that lowers their resistance to the element of the last Evoker spell they were hit by, by 50% of the total resistance, because "try-hard mode engage". Idk.
Re: Seriously, Buff Evokers (and LB) - MegaBlues - 06-23-2015
"[url=http://www.neus-projects.net/viewtopic.php?p=7994#p7994 Wrote:Ranylyn » Mon Jun 22, 2015 10:31 pm[/url]"]"[url=http://www.neus-projects.net/viewtopic.php?p=7992#p7992 Wrote:Kameron8 » Mon Jun 22, 2015 10:24 pm[/url]"]Also, in response to the post above. Evokers slaughter the unprepared, and get slaughtered by the prepared. This is far too polarizing, and not healthy. I don't care if there's 'anti magic classes', you should not walk into a fight with zero chance of winning because of classes alone. A kensei can still fight a Black Knight, even if they have a disadvantage. You cannot 'git gud' and overcome absurd damage reduction, unless gitting gud means changing your class and stats to VA/Ghost or a proper hard counter.
Let me use MG as an example.
Incredible damage output and ignores defenses. But very high dodge completely shuts it down since they're completel dependant on hit rolls. This makes Kensei the ultimate MG counter because of Blade Barrier + Yomidori vs Multihit guns, but any good dodger can really give them a hellish time. Completely destroys some classes, completely destroyed by others, sound familiar?
Sure, not all counters are as extreme, but counters like this stop classes from being too OP. yes, Evokers can be shut down by someone who's completely prepared as a VA/G with elemental resist gear, but considering how many classes they completely obliterate, it's not unfair.
Do I think the balance should be a bit better? It would be NICE, but considering the nature of the growth system and all, it's basically impossible. All that can be done is to make sure one class doesn't rule all. And I'm beyond glad that Evasion exists now, because even as a VA/G, I was oneshot by evokers in the past (WG being a chance and not a guarantee did me in.) And thats some bullshit.
Blessed and Focused Mind is enough to tag nearly any dodger. Hit them with a Magnet Overcharge, and they -will not- be dodging anything anytime soon. Gunners are one of the strongest classes in the game, given that they have no real hard counters. Blade Barrier only triggers if they're facing you, so, you know. Run around them. I don't know a single class that -destroys- MGs. Maybe makes them do less than point and shoot, but they're up there.
Class setups don't even obliterate Evokers. Items and enough Resistance does enough to slow them down. Also, you're stating that rock-paper-scissors balance is a good thing, which is sooooo wrong.
Re: Seriously, Buff Evokers (and LB) - MegaBlues - 06-23-2015
"[url=http://www.neus-projects.net/viewtopic.php?p=7997#p7997 Wrote:Mivereous » Mon Jun 22, 2015 10:37 pm[/url]"]Maybe give Evoker a way to lower enemy resistances, somehow. Or maybe a new item (8-9*) that can do so.
Such as, lowering all resistances by 50% of their total, or lowering the highest resistance by 25%, to a maximum (minimum?) of 0%.
This would (somewhat) solve one of the problems, but it's not nearly enough. Evoker probably does need a major overhaul at this point. One that isn't Elemental Overtime.
Re: Seriously, Buff Evokers (and LB) - Kameron8 - 06-23-2015
"[url=http://www.neus-projects.net/viewtopic.php?p=8000#p8000 Wrote:MegaBlues » Tue Jun 23, 2015 3:39 am[/url]"]"[url=http://www.neus-projects.net/viewtopic.php?p=7997#p7997 Wrote:Mivereous » Mon Jun 22, 2015 10:37 pm[/url]"]Maybe give Evoker a way to lower enemy resistances, somehow. Or maybe a new item (8-9*) that can do so.
Such as, lowering all resistances by 50% of their total, or lowering the highest resistance by 25%, to a maximum (minimum?) of 0%.
This would (somewhat) solve one of the problems, but it's not nearly enough. Evoker probably does need a major overhaul at this point. One that isn't Elemental Overtime.
Yep. We can band-aid fix the problem with items or skills that help circumvent the egregious resistance stacking, but Evokers really just need to be more reliable. Right now they're a volatile class that can throw a charged spell for 500 damage, or maybe throw a charged spell for zero damage. The only reasonable way of doing that is with changes to the class as a whole, in my opinion.