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+--- Thread: Down And Out (Knockdown) (/showthread.php?tid=1976)
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Down And Out (Knockdown) - Slydria - 11-16-2015
Knockdown is too strong. It reduces Momentum by 3, removes Guard, negates Evasion and now cripples Evade.
While I understand the logic of being easier to hit while knocked down. Knockdown was already quite strong and did not need the extra benefit.
Worse still, the penalty it gives is very large. Even a mediocre character will have no trouble hitting a knocked down target. And that's not even accounting for all the other bonuses one could potentially stack.
This also makes the new Quick Rise skill for Rogues much less valuable, after all, if you can't dodge while knocked down in the first place, you can't cure it.
I don't think there should be an Evade penalty at all for Knockdown but if there absolutely must be one, I think it should be a smaller, flat amount instead of a large percentage. (e.g. -10/-20/-30 instead of -50%/-75%/-100%)
Re: Down And Out (Knockdown) - Neus - 11-16-2015
It's 25%/50%/75% depending on armor type. Also, I think the bigger issue is just that a small number of skills make applying Knockdown too easy, namely Turnover.
I am willing to reduce the penalty if need be, though, maybe halving it overall. But this will probably be during the next update and not in the hotfix I am going to upload in a bit.
Re: Down And Out (Knockdown) - Rendar - 11-16-2015
Turnover ensures KD for next to no opportunity cost, especially if you're a Demon Hunter, which pretty much everyone abusing said skills are right now. Pulling Shot requires you to have spacing between you, and to HIT. Verglas has a combo that's requires (and heavy FP consumption) required for it... Hell, what other base class skills give knock down?
Because I'm not recalling any besides Archer and Soldier having the capabilities of KD at base class. Now that KD gets to remove Momentum, Negate Guard, Negate Evasion, AND cripple Evade... There actually isn't a point to being a dodger anymore, simply because of how overwhelmingly powerful KD is as a status effect. Blind makes you take -50, but a ton of races can flat out ignore it. Silence? Basic Items can cure it, a 1M move can cure it. It only effects mages, Blind effects people who require hit. KD?
Knock Down affects everyone now. Dodgers, Tanks, Mages, Basic Attackers. It does so many different things that it harms everyone, and demon hunters can just flat out pull it out of their rear for.. what? 1 or 2 Momentum?
Re: Down And Out (Knockdown) - Slydria - 11-16-2015
Oh. The way it was worded was a tad confusing but that does explain why the numbers I got while testing didn't look right.
Turnover could use a nerf but I'm not sure about tweaking the other Knockdown skills, since they do usually have some drawback. (Pulling Shot not being an autohit and drawing the target closer, Dense Thunder requiring Ki, Raijinken requiring an Airborne enemy, etc.)
I also think they are a necessary evil in some cases since they're the best way to get around skills like Guard and Evasion.
Re: Down And Out (Knockdown) - Rendar - 11-16-2015
Turnover is the main offender, the others have downside. Turnover just.. sort of puts them on the opposite side of you. Which in 1v1 isn't a downside whatsoever.
Re: Down And Out (Knockdown) - Sarinpa1 - 11-17-2015
In cases where knockdown needs to pass a hitcheck to proc, this new addition that reduces evade would be likely alright, with the proposed change, or with a flat reduce. (Percentage is incredibly unforgiving.)
Turnover is quite the issue as was mentioned, but I'd say dense thunder falls into the same category. Six ki is very, very easy to come by, and we're back to the issue. Dodgy characters that are not study for one reason or another shouldn't be completely destroyed by something easily accessible as knockdown.
Based on a few tests, knock-down madchop will very much kill everything that counts on evading, without having the very specific classes with large evade buffs. (Mainly mages in trouble, yes. )
I'd personaly not touch knockdown skills themselves, rather just tweak the penalty.
(Also when i said buff dh, i was kiddin sheesh)
Re: Down And Out (Knockdown) - MegaBlues - 11-17-2015
so now we have yomidori plus
yep, this was totally a great idea, because damage mitigation wasnt better than evade already
Re: Down And Out (Knockdown) - Soapy - 11-17-2015
"[url=http://neus-projects.net/viewtopic.php?p=10350#p10350 Wrote:Slydria ยป Mon Nov 16, 2015 4:29 pm[/url]"]I don't think there should be an Evade penalty at all for Knockdown but if there absolutely must be one, I think it should be a smaller, flat amount instead of a large percentage. (e.g. -10/-20/-30 instead of -25%/-50%/-75%)Maybe Dev just doesn't realize this percentage basically makes attacks autohits?
250 is on the lower end of dodge (my lowest not-tank is an un-LE'd Kensei/Arb with 277), and knockdown lowers it by 63 with unarmored. Light Armor lowers it by a whopping 125, and Heavy.. well, I honestly think any broken weapon could still hit you at that point.
Seems like a huge kick in the teeth for people to farm 10* dodge armors only to lose half of their evade because they happen to be Light.
Re: Down And Out (Knockdown) - Chaos - 11-17-2015
The evade penalty on KD is fine, though I would've given the penalty to something like Slow/Immobilize if I had the chance. People seem to forget that defensive values tend to have at least one counter that would either cripple them or completely disable them.
The reason why it seems so overbearing is Turnover. A formula that restricts how successful the KD infliction is (i.e. having a chance based on base STR, or base STR vs opponent's BW) would be a step in the right direction. I cannot think of any other skill that can easily perform KD without some prior setup or a drawback.
That being said, let's wait until Turnover loses the automatic Knockdown factor, then see how overbearing the penalty is before we start calling it the second Yomidori.
P.S. Demon Hunters can't just whip out a low-M turnover out of their ass whenever they want. Especially when having to move to a target makes Combination Fighter useless.
Re: Down And Out (Knockdown) - Rendar - 11-17-2015
PS: Demon Hunters CAN whip out a low-M Turnover with little to no drawback if you are within 6 squares of them and in a line. Or even remotely close. They can perform a ton of stuff to your face.
Turnover OP.
Also saying that "KNOCK DOWN IS THE ONE COUNTER TO DODGE" is literally the single most hilarious thing I have heard all day. There are a ton of items now that simply give you +TONS of hit. Effects that give +HIT, enchants that give +HIT (and quite a bit of it). Things that lower the dodgers dodge (by quite a bit). Dodging got kicked in the nuts, just like tanking did. However Tanking only got kicked mildly while Dodging got pounded hard.