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[Main Class] Summoner - Rendar - 01-13-2016
How about we make Install their main class skill? It involves like. A deep bond with their youkai or something. Could also have the Cracked Mirror be their second Main-Class skill.
Benefits: Install Finally Nerfed, Summoner can finally be open to getting buffs/more youkai. It's legitimately not that bad.
For the few of you still on the FENCE AND STUFF.
Here's why this is a good idea.
You know those installers in 1v1? The guys who probably use Duelist? Aight. They can't Install + get the benefits of One-on-one now. Nor can people go Monk/GS for insane resistances+DR. They gotta choose between being able to install (drowned woman, etc), or being able to gain extra ki/DR/Combination Fighter.
As it stands right now, in almost every occasion, three classes will always be SUB. Not because they're bad, but simply because they aren't good enough to overpower the benefits of main-classing something else.
Lanternbearer has been out of the meta for awhile. Simply because it just can't deal enough damage, and it doesn't have the utilitarian support that Hexers provide. Hexers can reduce RES, and provide debuffs/buffs where needed. Or simply poison someone to death. LBs can't do much of any damage, anymore.
Curates don't have 'good' class skills, meaning they're likely to be subclassed.
Mages don't have ANY main class benefits, so they're probably going to be a sub class.
and Summoners have no downsides when sub-classed.
Hell, even Soldier is only situationally 'useful' if you use a shield and/or use bash (some people don't yo).
Some main class skills are inherently much better than others, and those are the ones that will be used as main class skills over others.
Re: [Main Class] Summoner - Ranylyn - 01-13-2016
I'm in favor of making Install Main Class. But not Cracked Mirror.
I'd say the second main class skill shoud be Sync Mind. Sync Mind gives you as many skills and passives as you have Youkai. On the flip side, Cracked Mirror just... you know... gives some of the FP a summoner needs to actually summon at all. Sync Mind would reign summoner's non summoning in somewhat with "wow, look at this, 2 SP for all these skills" and encouraging people to actually... you know... SUMMON.
If Cracked Mirror were the second Main Class skill, you'd go from "people subbing it for install" to "people subbing it for Ingrain/Parraeta/Ruby Beam/Shatter Beam/ etc. And with Install AND Sync Mind limited to main class, you wouldn't see people subbing it just for the FP regen when other classes simply do it better - people might actualy summon.
EDIT: Alternatively, make a main class skill that brings summon sustain costs in line with what they used to be. Youkai themselves have been nerfed quite a bit (lower growths in some cases and almost all their skills hit for Level/2 bonus damage instead of Level bonus damage) for a still-steep FP upkeep, and I feel that this could be another way to encourage people to actually use summoners for summoning.
Re: [Main Class] Summoner - Slydria - 01-13-2016
Making Install a Main-Class Skill is a fair enough suggestion.
However, Cracked Mirror is definitely not worth being a Main-Class Skill.
And I absolutely disagree with Sync-Mind being Main-Class only. This would take away far too much from the class, especially considering how Summoning by itself is fairly weak right now.
Just imagine if Martial Artists couldn't use any Kick Skills unless they were Main Class, that'd be totally ridiculous, right?
Main-Class Skills should be incentives, not core components of the class.
Re: [Main Class] Summoner - Ranylyn - 01-13-2016
Objection noted, Sly. And your point is valid.
EDIT: In light of objections to my idea, I officially revoke my sync-mind main class idea. While it's true that Summoners... well... SUMMON, it's also true that the upkeep cost per turn is steep and sometimes people just want to play them more like mages. My suggestion was based on the old "everyone just installs instead of summoning" arguments of people wanting summoners to actually summon, but as things presently are, summoning actually kinda often sucks and Sync Mind is all they have left if they lose installs.
Re: [Main Class] Summoner - Autumn - 01-13-2016
Install as a main class skill sounds fair I'll agree, sync mind should always work however.
Re: [Main Class] Summoner - Chaos - 01-15-2016
Install needs to become a Main Class skill, period.
I'd argue that Cracked Mirror has some reason for becoming Main Class as well, but it's not completely necessary at the same time.
....On the other hand, Grand Summoner's 'free 15 FP regen lol' Inate Skill needs to get Main Class restriction immediately.
Re: [Main Class] Summoner - Rendar - 01-15-2016
Just gon say this now.
No promoted class has "Main Class Only" requirements. Let's not start that trend now.
What I could see from Grand Summoner is that if it's your sub class (Like Monk, and LB do) it only gives 7.5 (7 one turn, 8 the next). That will, at most, give 14-15 FP per turn with Capacity maxed out. Which is, again, enough to support 1 Youkai.
What I could see as another 'main class' sort of thing is Sync Mind. Not so much that "U CANT USE YOUKAI SKILLS" No. But more that you don't gain access to their passive benefits naturally. Which means that with a Youkai like Drowned Woman, you only get Drown. You can't install with her either because No-Main-Class.
The only youkai I can currently see this being an issue with is Vampire Legume. At that point, it will simply be a matter of swapping around his FIRST and SECOND Youkai Skills. So that he's useful to have if someone immoblizes you, just sort of useless otherwise.
It won't outright lock Sub-Class summoners out of being able to perform their Youkai Attacks, but it will lock them out of being able to get 50 passives. Which was sort of the problem with having a ton of youkai in the first place.
Re: [Main Class] Summoner - Ranylyn - 01-15-2016
I still think that instead of going "lmao fuck you you can't afford to summon because Youkai upkeep is so expensive AND we're making you garbage unless you're main class" we should instead turn the FP regen into Upkeep Cost Reduction. Make each Youkai's cost FAR more manageable in exchange for sacrificing that +15 from Cracked Mirror + Absorb Ether every turn.
Why do I think this is a good idea?
One reason the FP cost upkeep was raised in the first place was because of stacking FP regen (Example: Capacity, Kensei, Witch hat, etc) to be able to field a large army for many turns while still being able to fight, yourself. Now, by removing that FP regen and instead allowing those points to go towards bringing the FP cost more in line with what it used to be, you'd need to use other means to keep FP up, like Pacifist Boon, Power Up, Channel Magic. or Descending Uroboros, all of which limit the actions you can take, either by prohibiting oiffensive actions (And support skills would cost more than the Pacifist Boon recovers anyways) or by using up your actions purely on FP recovery. Or by limiting armor choices due to +7 from Kensei, I guess.
Considering that Youkai have since been nerfed (Most of them have halved skill damage scaling from before in exchange for reduced FP costs for their skills, which, when factoring in damage formulas, makes them dramatically less potent overall.) I think reworking their FP regen into a bonus exclusively for youkai maintenance instead of allowing their other class to benefit from all that FP is plenty fair.
But hey, I also can't complain with being able to tank 12 level 60 Youkai at once and laughing at the lich summoning them running out of FP before they can kill me, so if everyone wants to keep Youkai as pretty crap garbage worthless, I guess that's an option too.
Re: [Main Class] Summoner - Rendar - 01-15-2016
This ain't a summoner Balance thread.
Well it sort of is. Except it's not about FP cost.
It's about Install nerf by making it a main class skill because it was REALLY GOOD. And people went GS to simply install because Install+8 or so passives that gave tons of buffs is really powerful.
This is about nerfing that so it doesn't happen unless they main-class.
Re: [Main Class] Summoner - Neus - 01-15-2016
I agree that Install would make the most sense as a main class skill given that it's so powerful and it's rather iconic to the class. Not sure about anything else, though.