Discussion: On the future of SL2, and keeping traffic up. - Printable Version +- NEUS Projects (https://neus-projects.net/forums) +-- Forum: Sigrogana Legend 2 (OOC) (https://neus-projects.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=8) +--- Forum: General Discussion (https://neus-projects.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=9) +--- Thread: Discussion: On the future of SL2, and keeping traffic up. (/showthread.php?tid=2430)

Discussion: On the future of SL2, and keeping traffic up. - Ranylyn - 03-11-2016 Let me preface this discussion by saying, "I've attempted to recruit many people I know to SL2. And only one has ever stuck around (and even then he's like a 5 times a year supercasual.)" This begs the question of why, and the main answer is simple: the game is severely lacking in content, INCLUDING players to interact with. Yes. Players are indeed content in terms of any online experience, regardless of if it's allies for PVE, opponents for PVP, or even random schmucks you casually talk about the weather with in an RP game. So quite bluntly, the lack of players is pushing players away. This brings us to the first issue: how can we get more players if we can't keep players, and how can we solve the issue of lag when there's too many players? Well, for starters, I'd like to point out that more players = more people who are likely to donate = affording a better server. So really, I think this issue will sort itself out, if we can take care of evereything else. Right now, the peak number of players usually doesn't get too high above 50, and that's with multikeyers. So I'd like to set us a challenge: Let's help Dev improve the game enough that we can aim for 200 without mutikeying. Let's bring back older players who left by fixing some issues that pushed them away, and encourage newer ones to stick around. So. Let's start by addressing several issues a lot of people I know have talked to me about, and ways to improve them. I'll post one new issue per week, so we have ample time to go over several ideas. 1) The world is too lifeless, with too litte to do. There's a good number of cities already, but the entire world feels lifeless when everyone congregtes almost entirely around Cellsvich/Arena. Using Tannis as an example, 99% of my Tannis Roleplay, for example, has either been in player houses (I used to live there, on multiple of my characters) or Beast Raids. Tannis is basically just there for the password for the Mine, and more player houses. There's nowhere to sit, nothing to do, no reason for players to stick around and interact at all. Unlike Dormeho, which offers fishing, mirrors, and multiple quests, Tannis has nothing to offer. Meanwhile, Dormeho RP is STILL decently rare, despite all that and more. This is largely because the Arena has legal PVP, rewards for fighting, the fastest access to an Inn in the game, the fastest access to weapon repairs in the game, etc. And,as the starting town, Cellsvich is just more convenient than every other city by default for meeting people. Yes, with less players, this is indeed a convenience; if you want RP, you go to the Arena or Cellsvich. But it's not good for expansion and getting a bigger playerbase. As for the main quest... it's obvious Dev has plans. As a writer, myself, one doesn't simply plan this much lore with no idea where anything is going. A good solid storyline would be a good reason for people to play, but due to all the other things that need work, advancing the story just doesn't happen often at all. To give you an idea, I joined shortly after Kensei was implemented. I believe the Ashe fight was already in, at that point. It's been over two years, at this point, and the story has had one singular update, since. Now, while it IS true that going through the story is basically something that happens once and that's it, I don't see the issue with it if the story is a decent length and has some decent rewards for doing so. "So? That's Dev's fault!" I'd actually like to point out that it's very likely Dev would have been further along in it by now if not for all the requests we make, so we can actively help by easing off on the suggestions/ balance fu/ etc for a little bit. And let's talk dungeons. Randomized BDPs are fine and dandy, but we also need more statics. And I mean STATIC statics, like the Jammer Cave, Goblin Cave, Old Iron Mine, and Chinotoa Mines. Locations we can use for missions and, to an extent, even roleplay (I see a good amount of RP in the Jammer Tunnels and almost none in the others, due to mobile mobs.) I'm not knocking the work it takes to make a proper functional randomizer (I've tried coding one out of curiosity. 2/3 of my layouts were unbeatable.) but there's a big difference between exploring a new location with curiosity and excitement, versus "yay, randomized layout #37, just gotta find my way through." So let's talk fixes, shall we? A few ideas I'd like to possibly discuss are... - Tweaking the Arena's layout so while it doesn't suck, it's not the epitome of convenience that makes the rest of the game suck by default. Perhaps an indoor environment similar to the Final Fantasy 6 arena, where you need to walk up to the services instead of them being right in your face as soon as you enter. (For a mental image, take Oniga's inn, the first floor, and the rooms in the back being Yuna's forge and Remedia's clinic, and Tarson in the middle at the entrance to the combat area) The important thing is to not make the Arena suck, but to change it just enough that it's less tempting to be the singular central hub for the entire game. (The fact that it's also smack dab in Central Sigrogana does NOT help, either.) - Zeo is also the single fastest pawn shop to access upon entering a town, as well. Just saying. - Optionally changing starting location based on various criteria, such as a combination of race/class/history trait, with an optional questline surrounding your backstory. Sure, if you really wanted to just happen to be from Cellsvich regardless, you could, but this would be a way to immediately help get more players in different locations, and give more life to the NPCs. For example, once Karaten is added, a Karatynn Mage with the Magician history would have the option to start in Karatynn as an apprentice, for example. I'd give the game a lot more of an identity than "everyone just shows up at Cellsvich for some reason have fun." - Just giving Dev some time to do story stuff could indeed lead to new dungeons and more stuff to do in towns, so that's a thing. Stay tuned for a more controversial topic next week, "Meta vs Everyman: When the endgame impacts a new player's experience with the game." Re: Discussion: On the future of SL2, and keeping traffic up - Felkesste - 03-15-2016 It's weird that no one's responded to this in any way yet. While I do agree that part of the problem is that there's not much to be done in any of those locales, I feel like more people would just result in more people gathering in the arena, and Cellsvich. I'd love to see 'part-time jobs', with mini-games, to earn 'an honest day's pay'. When people play this game, they start making their character- and envision them to be some super-powered badass like from one of their favorite animes, or games. Then they level up- and make the unpleasant discovery that, no matter how good you might be, the game's built around counters, gear, and percentile chances, not who's the most badass. They can still try to RP an amazing adventurer, or hero- but they'll win about as often as they lose, against people who aren't RPing amazing adventurers, or heroes- just average kids, always looking to pick fights. It spoils their power-fantasy, and dampens the enthusiasm to keep going. They end up bitter- and once a game stops being fun, it's common-sense to walk away. So I'd love to see a part-time job system. Even better, I'd love to see a Destiny implemented, that brings your level cap down to level 30- but makes your rewards/pay for part-time jobs better, makes your ability to get items off monsters higher, and makes your character get more crafting points to distribute, more often. Bringing it down to one point every 5 levels would put them on par with a level cap of 60, sure, but bringing it further down to 3 levels would really pay off for them, give them another small advantage, so that adventurers can't 'just do what they do- and better, too'. Basically just a farmer/peasant/everyday-worker kind of thing. Some more crafting recipes would be stellar, too, with higher skill requirements, so that those working class Joes that go all in on blacksmithing, or cooking, or something can produce things that adventurers can't, things adventurers would eventually want. Re: Discussion: On the future of SL2, and keeping traffic up - Sarinpa1 - 03-15-2016 I'll share the big secret as to why nobody replied check ranylyns post history cough Regardless, I feel that changing layouts, forcing people to start elsewhere than Cellsvich, or further thinning out the concentration of player base is 1. Counterproductive. 2. Not going to change a thing for the better. If people want to go somewhere private, they do. If they don't, they gather at the usual places. It's how it is and it's reasonable. If you're concerned about attracting new players, or giving things to do, it doesn't have anything to do with that, but more rather with how static the world is. It has already been brought up in several topics in the past. Players have the ability to make bigger impact (See : Sawrocks little plot.) if they arrange it with Dev, but beyond that, not really. Before we get anywhere near suggesting ways to further expand on what can be done. (Typical suggestions of actualy changing locations, faction wars that'd require a higher party limit, hireable NPCs for combatants/guild guards whatever) You have to keep in mind that despite Chaos' best efforts, we still have a game where serious roleplay is just swept aside by memes and very 'hillarious' fourth wall breaking jokes, along with people unable to properly emulate injuries, fear of consequence and such. If we take inspiration in other roleplaying games, it's the conflict that keeps the wheel spinning, whether we like it or not, and given that any larger conflict is impossible beyond your friend circles, because consequence is not something you can force on people. And appealing to their roleplaying ability is...not going to work. I'll bring up my favourite examples, person gets fingers cut off, they just stuff them in their mouth and smoke them like a blunt, next day they have their fingers again, someone gets a leg lopped off, they just wave it off and hop away, next day their leg is just fine. Along with no clear guidelines regarding the guard system, where something that'd be ICly discarded as inconclusive due to lack of evidence, a little of OOC knowledge helps to instantly pin the crime to the criminal. tl;dr, our roleplaying enviroment is too light RP to breed any decent conflict on a wider scale, which means that particular tool to keep the wheel spinning is out of question. What more is there? To adress adding new features, minigames, harvesting, crafting.. it'll end like everything we currently have. OOC McBeggar : someone enchant OOC Enchanter : ya wutchu want The only things that are rarely used for IC are beast raids, fishing and grinding, which are like that mainly because grinding is such a horrible chore..and a necesary one, that people just crave to slightly spice it up. I'd say a good step toward making the game more interesting was the introduction of event tools for GMs, which are still severely limited, but it's a good step forward. You're pretty much able to do what I proposed earlier, player dungeons. (pretty much "i am evil necromancer, come into my playerhouse/dungeon and fight my minions until you reach me) Giving the option to pretty much do a narrative driven dungeon dive that's there for the RP, not the exp/items. (Still possible to give items riiight.) Except you have to have Chaos helpcha. So it's not like you can do it yourself. Something that'd be nice to change. And definetly would bring in more players. A different aproach would be for larger scale battles, which'd require to increase the party limit and perhaps get the option of hire-able NPCs for PvP on your side. But question is how to limit it so every whatshisface doesn't have an army. But getting into detail of this thing would be redundant. Point is, more minigames won't change shit. Nor will a layout change, or new goals for crafting/leveling/grinding in general. The players need more tools to generate roleplaying enviroments. That's what'll help. edit : also lag aint a hosting issue, its byond Re: Discussion: On the future of SL2, and keeping traffic up - Felkesste - 03-15-2016 I meant it more as a means of telling people right off the bat- from their first few minutes of experiencing the game- that there's more to be doing than 'being an adventurer'. You don't HAVE to be a hero, or a badass, or even a competent combatant. You can aspire to be a farmer, or a smith. Part of what discourages people from really taking that sort of thing seriously is that adventurers can not only do all that themselves- they have an easier time doing it, because their adventurer gets them the materials they need, and they can just turn around and use them rather than supply them to 'honest craftsmen', for murai, or exchanges. If we cut that down some, and let people know from the get-go that their character isn't limited to being an adventurer, there'll be less PVP drama, and bitterness. As things stand, the 'serious adventurer' characters are left sore because the casually dressed kids are better armed than them, and are thus far better adventurers, even while making ridiculous jokes, the 'serious craftsmen' characters are left sore because their economy is completely dominated by people who can make the things they need for themselves just as easily- if not easier, which leaves people feeling watered down, and unwanted. All it takes is one bad day, where their stoic, hard-working adventurer gets blind-sided by a meme-master, to turn someone from the game or to push them towards being one of those sorts of people, so if that's your complaint, offering alternative paths in life could still help. If the world doesn't have anything to say to you, and the majority of players are goobers, the chances of you finding something to suck you into the game, and keep you playing aren't all that high. Part-time jobs with extended interactions with NPCs, who'll, at the very least, recognize you, and greet you with your -name-, that'd make a pretty big difference in feeling welcome, wanted, and involved in the world. I mean, shucks. Do you know how much murai you can make, selling imaginary products to people? Fortune-telling made me bank, selling imaginary soap and plushies made a fair bit, heck, just selling 'my time' as the courtesan, that made quite a bit, too. There's clearly a market for more markets in general, if people are willing to drop so much of their coin on vague, professional business transactions. Re: Discussion: On the future of SL2, and keeping traffic up - Ranylyn - 03-16-2016 Unfortunately, Sarin, you really did hit a big nail on the head with the poor excuses for roleplay. Girl loses an arm at the shoulder, goes "awesome, I always wanted a penis" and sticks it in her pants for a bulge. And somehow gets her girlfriend pregnant with it. It's just a big joke to everyone. Screw the logic, screw the lore, screw word of Dev saying "that's not possible in this world I've created." Screw everything, it's all about the shits and giggles. And quite honestly, it's so dumb I refuse to waste my efforts coming up with creative ways of insulting it. A big part of my efforts to get more players has indeed been to try to bring up the overall quality of roleplay. An effort completely wasted in the face of... well... (Obvious disclaimer: I only know this happened because of the "Funny Quotes" thread. And it was clearly in a player house. And this was clearly just spammed for RP exp. But it goes to show that as is, RP exp is presently an unfortunate joke if people can do this for it instead of actively roleplaying. I just grabbed this as a blatantly obvious example of memes taking priority over roleplay.) Point being, my "bad reputation" regarding my post history has been largely from playing new alts a lot instead of LEing to shit, and examining things from the eyes of a new player for the sake of the people I invite. "I know ______ would love this class combo. _____ looks like a potential issue. I'll try it for mysef and see how it pans out. Welp, I was right." If I just wanted good characters, I'd LE and do it like everyone else. I'm trying to bring a bit more balance to things overall so it's not "Meta or Bust." It's not my problem that so many others are all "mah mettagayme omfg go die in a fire ran." But enough about that for now. I'm getting to it in a few days. One topic at a time. I'll get back to your point about the RP consequences and such, then. It does tie in to things. For a taste, see http://www.neus-projects.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2451 as an example: an optional self-imposed consequence set being met with a lot of resistance because lol. Besides one last point about Byond - that being I've played a game with over 80 people and no lag, before - but the game was taken down due to a DMCA notice so I can't show any proof - so the hosting IS at least a part of the issue... Otherwise, I have no objections to the rest of your post - it's an accurate analysis of the way things presently are, and it's not like we can just force change, despite some things, like "dem meems," being... well... unwanted and unappreciated. Unfortunately, and this is an entirely personal issue, I don't think GM tools are enough of a step in the right direction when we only have two... and one is on haitus while the other runs the Guard system, which, as you pointed out, is kind of flawed in the worst way. (No offense, Chaos. Well, maybe some offense, that depends.) But yeah. Back to Felkesste's points: Massively in agreement. On everything. I, myself, would have left by now if not for various reasons (Such as a completely POS comp being unable to run better games for RP, and the emotional attachment I built to SL2 early on in my playing, in some chance good roleplay that made me feel real emotions and led to meeting a lot of pretty okay people.) And even then, at times it's gotten to the point that I've simply gone on haitus for a bit, because wtf. I'm not asking for amazing RP, but an ATTEMPT at RP would be nice. It's like, "I'll create a good tanky character. Like a BK." And then your slow platemail ass is still outtanked by some little shit in a T-shirt because someone thought it'd be funny to have a fragile-looking character be tougher than tempered plate. It's like, "What are your roleplay reasons for being so tough? Magical warding? Just being an illusion while your real body is 10 feet away? Maybe-" "My reasons are get fucking rekt!" This kind of nonsensical nonsense really does drive people off. Plus, you need to be an adventurer to do ANY profession. Want to be a blacksmith? Materials in BDPs. Want to cook? Materials in BDPs. Want to - B D FUCKING P! And your character level needs to rise to affect your crafting levels. So unless you have a friend OOCly grind you (ugh, OOC - for a game flagged as RP mandatory in the description on Byond, OOC does seem to be like 90% of what goes on, doesn't it?) you can only accomplish so much via transactions/RP. Point being... a part-time job system would be great. Because it's exactly like you said: If the other players are a bunch of goobers, at least having more solo content could keep you playing.