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+--- Thread: PVE/PVP Modes (/showthread.php?tid=2464)
PVE/PVP Modes - Ranylyn - 03-25-2016
Please read the entire post before replying. Not skim. READ. Missing an already addressed point and arguing it while ignoring everything already said about it (of course, bringing up other points is welcome and encouraged) will get you slapped with a rubber chicken. A spiky edgelord rubber chicken named Melvin who's sick of being used to smack people who don't read. The last person smacked by Melvin bled out within a minute and got the bludgeoner 25 years in prison. Please think of the enforcers trying to keep things running smoothly. And forget the victims; it's for your own good.
Many games have differing mechanics for PVE and PVP. Sometimes, these seem stupid and arbitrary (Example: DC Universe Online has "Defense" for PVE and "Toughness" for PVP, items don't sport both, with mixed open world PVE/PVP, lolwut.) Other times, they're a brilliant balance that allows anything to excel in any game mode. I used to not be a fan of such arbitrary mechanic changes, but I've since come to appreciate them from a balance perspective. PVP is a logical endgame point for any game, and continuing to use the exact same rules from the rest of the game can be problematic at times.
Let me talk strategy and team roles for a minute: Crowd Control, often shortened to "Control" or even just "Troll," is a common role in many MMOs. The role of the controller is to even the playing field by temporarily neutralizing certain enemies, via stuns, polymorphing, causing a status to make them behave erratically, and other such actions. Bosses are of course immune, but when 4 players are up against one boss and 10 of his goons, being able to temporarily remove 2-3 from the equation turns a massacre into a fighting chance. But what happens in PVP? You'd think that being able to stun enemies for a bit would be gamebreaking. Enter PVP mode, where stun chances/durations are dramaticaly reduced, or even replaced with different effects, like slowing someone instead of completely locking them down.
(For comparison, the closest things SL2 has to proper control are Celcius Shell, Cripple Leg, Entangle Traps, Ruby Beam, Earthbound Vengeance/Fog, Spirit Pain, Skull Caver, and until recently, Light Tomahawk. Many of these skills see/ have seen a/numerous cries for PVP balancing. Yes, I am actually suggesting we make those skills have different PVE and PVP effects.)
So why am I bringing this up?
SL2's balance is presently a joke;
- Mages completely dominate PVE while melee just suffers. An old but still relevant eample: http://www.neus-projects.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=65
- Physical (generally) dominates PVP due to it being harder to get Slash/Pierce/Blunt resist, as well as crits and such.
- As such, almost everyone just has friends use mages to grind their melee characters up for them.
Any attempt to balance something for one makes it too strong/too weak in the other. So this may be a good time to discuss implementing different PVE/PVP skill mechanics to bring some GLOBAL balance, making everything a bit more universally standard and not requiring Class A to prepare Class B for things.
Examples:
- PVE stuns to counteract major threats (Example: Sliders vs Low Def characters) that don't work in PVP.
- Reduced PVP healing potency so fights don't become a boring slog while still keeping them powerful in PVE
- Reduced PVE FP costs on some things, like Youkai upkeep, and increased PVP FP costs on some things.
- Changing overly crippling movement reduction effects into something else in PVP while retaining that PVE function.
- And many more! Order now and I'll DOUBLE your examples!
"So, how could this be implemented efficiently and not taking abhorrent amounts of work for Dev?"
Simply put, every battle is already either PVE or PVP; there is no mixed battle. You cannot join a PVE battle on the monster team to ambush a character, for example. So, options for how Dev can implement this are numerous. One skill could have two effects based on a hidden PVE/PVP toggle, or there could be two entirely different skills (with the same name/animation, of course) with one loaded at battle start based on the battle type. Battle type could be determined by either method of initiation, or possibly environment (because who makes a habit of PVP in BDPs, as an example?) I propose we leave this part up to Dev, if the idea is used; I'm just tossing out ideas to try make Dev's life easier.
"And just how, exactly, do you propose to seperately balance both PVE and PVP!?"
Look at Balance Fu. Who makes PVE balance threads? Some people, but not nearly as many as PVP. Most balancing is already done around PVP, and sometimes, it impacts PVE pretty hard. This way, balance threads for one type don't need to impact the other. We can make PVP more fair without worrying about PVE issues arising from it, and also make more things good in PVE without becoming overbearing in PVP.
Yes, we can expect to see a surge of PVE tweak ideas shortly after implementation if this goes through, but it's a small price to pay for the potential benefits (see below) and that should die down decently fast once PVE isn't "use magic or suffer."
"And does this affect anything other than letting filthy casuals enjoy the game without partaking in our meta?"
Absoutely! I wouldn't suggest this for no reason! Go back to my earlier statement about Crowd Control in other games: I wasn't just using that example for no reason. With more things like that available in PVE without PVP getting completely one sided, we can finally deliver the harder dungeons and bosses many people have asked for! We can see a proper PVE Meta (Think Raids in MMOs; parties grouping up for major challenges they could never tackle alone) instead of PVP being the only real Meta.
"Ranylyn, you're a fucking retard, this idea sucks and you suck and I hate you."
If you truly legitimately think this is a 100% bad idea with no merits worth considering, I'll take that "retard" comment as a compliment, coming from you.
So, now that you're done reading the wall of text, do your thing. Disagree, Agree, Argue, Debate, Criticize, Applaud, whatever you want, it's your choice.
Re: PVE/PVP Modes - Rendar - 03-25-2016
(For comparison, the closest things SL2 has to proper control are Celcius Shell, Cripple Leg, Entangle Traps, Ruby Beam, Earthbound Vengeance/Fog, Spirit Pain, Skull Caver, and until recently, Light Tomahawk. Many of these skills see/ have seen a/numerous cries for PVP balancing. Yes, I am actually suggesting we make those skills have different PVE and PVP effects.)
You forgot the entirety of Tactician scrub.
git gud.
Tactician is an odd mix of buff/debuff to everyone on the playing field, fixing it into the "Control/Support" category.
BK is Tank
DH is whatever the hell you want it to be. A wild card.
LB/Priest are Support/Offense
Hexer is Control/Offense
Evoker is Offense
Verg is Offense/Control
Monk is Tank/Offense
VA is Offense/Control
Engineer is Support/Offense
MG is Offense/Control
Arbalest is Offense/Control
Kensei/Duelist is Offense/Control
GS/Bonder is a wild card.
I could sort of get behind this though. It's actually kinda neat and I wouldn't mind seeing it. Though this does put a ton of work on Dev (who's working on something BIG apparently)
Re: PVE/PVP Modes - Ranylyn - 03-25-2016
Correction: Why did I say Ruby Beam was a control skill? I was thinking of Gorgon's Petrification Gaze. Sorry. I derped hard.
Actually, about that, I did mean purely in terms of "locking enemies down," rather than Tactician's buffs and Debuffs, but it can arguably fit several kinds of control niches I wasn't considering at the time, such as using Bunker Formation + Guard to keep a powerful enemy occupied away from the rest of the party, and things like Raging Shinken to move enemies away from the group. You actually really hit the nail on the head with the different roles different classes can perform, and some of the potential synergy for advanced PVE instances, such as Verglas Ice slowing enemies down (I did forget to list this) or combos like an Arbalest using Pulling Shot to yank an enemy away from the rest of the clustered enemies so an LB could blow them further away from it to make it a nonissue for a round or two. I fully admit I was taking a more narrow minded mindset geared more towards outright stunning an enemy.
But yeah, all this would indeed be a big undertaking to plan for the future and likely need to be trickled out a bit at a time over a long time. There's no getting around that. Dev is one person, after all. Still, I do think it's worth at least keeping on the backburner and working a little bit towards at a time.
Re: PVE/PVP Modes - Raigen.Convict - 03-25-2016
I'd like to see this happen, let's see what Dev comes up with. Could be fun!
Re: PVE/PVP Modes - Egil - 03-25-2016
+1