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+--- Thread: Bear, Fox, Hare (/showthread.php?tid=2808)
Bear, Fox, Hare - Kameron8 - 06-17-2016
I've mentioned this offhand in a different thread before, but one of the most unique and interesting components of Verglas has died from the scaling revamp. Before, you had three trees that focused on a different main stat. People could opt to do well in one or two, and some pretty crafty people managed to make use of all three, but the distinction was always present. Now, the 'three trees' feel a whole lot more like the same attacks with very few exceptions.
Seeing as most fists scale with strength, having that stat makes you good at everything Verglas has. The purpose behind Bear's Might, Fox's Cunning, and Hare's Agility is all but lost -- they're essentially just good passive stat boosters with no impact on how you play the class. The only differentiation that remains is when leveraging Chimera Style; which almost always boils down to Rising Kick, Axe Kick, Face Stomp/Rapid kick, or using Crane Hop Axe Kick + A different skill.
People might disagree, but I strongly believe all of the Verglas offensive skills should retain special scaling for their associated stat. Because as of right now, every Verglas who takes Strength and Skill is doing everything better than someone with high Celerity or Will.
Re: Bear, Fox, Hare - Neus - 06-17-2016
I've said before that I think this is a valid concern, however no one ever came up with specific changes that they felt were better.
Re: Bear, Fox, Hare - Rendar - 06-17-2016
I feel that a decent enough way to fix this would be (since the Verglas tree actually does relatively low damage per hit for the FP cost) would be to do something like...
Rising Kick 110% wpn atk + 100% STR, 16 fp, makes self airborne
Point Kick 110% wpn atk + 100% STR, 16 fp, makes enemy airborne
Cold Front 110% wpn atk + 100% STR, 16 fp, kicks people around, can deal more damage if they hit an ice point
Axe Kick 110% wpn atk + 100% CEL, 22 fp, If you are airborne KD target
Face Stomp 150% wpn atk + 100% CEL, 22 fp, only usable if target has KD status. Cures KD.
Rapid Kick 110% wpn atk + 100% CEL, 22 fp, RAPIDUU KICKU
Icicle Spear 100% Ice Atk + 150% Scaled Wpn Atk + 100% WIL(9 momentum to use, 62 fp total cost)
Crawling Spikes 60% Ice Atk + 100% Scaled Wpn Atk + 75% WIL(3 momentum to use, 42 fp total cost)
Expanding Ice 60% Ice Atk + 110% Scaled Wpn Atk + 75% WIL(6 momentum to use, or a friend, 42 fp + extra cost for ice tiles)
Re: Bear, Fox, Hare - Kameron8 - 06-17-2016
"Neus" Wrote:I've said before that I think this is a valid concern, however no one ever came up with specific changes that they felt were better.
One of the things that should probably be done first is creating fist weapons that aren't primarily strength scaled. Even with the spelledge weapon, 60% of the damage from scaled weapon attack still comes from strength. If every Verglas needs strength to function, the problem cannot inherently go away.
Aside from that, I'll brainstorm some ideas for scaling with other people and post back in a little while.
Re: Bear, Fox, Hare - Kameron8 - 06-17-2016
Revised idea: Verglas skills replace the %stat scaling used in fist weapons with 100% of the corresponding tree's stat (Hare uses Cel, Bear uses Str, Fox uses Will). This means damage will be calculated as follows:
Scaled Weapon ATK = (100% Cel/Will/Str *1.5) + (Power + Upgrades).
From this new value, skills will scale in the same manner as they are currently implemented.
Bear
Cold Front:
70% Scaled WPN ATK
80% Scaled WPN ATK
90% Scaled WPN ATK
100% Scaled WPN ATK
110% Scaled WPN ATK
Rising Kick: Unchanged.
Point Kick: Unchanged.
Hare
Axe Kick:
70% Scaled WPN ATK
80% Scaled WPN ATK
90% Scaled WPN ATK
100% Scaled WPN ATK
110% Scaled WPN ATK
Rapid Kick:
85% Scaled WPN ATK
95% Scaled WPN ATK
105% Scaled WPN ATK
115% Scaled WPN ATK
125% Scaled WPN ATK
Face Stomp: Unchanged.
Fox
Icicle Spear:
38 FP, 35% Ice Attack, 100% Scaled WPN ATK
36 FP, 45% Ice Attack, 110% Scaled WPN ATK
34 FP, 55% Ice Attack, 120% Scaled WPN ATK
32 FP, 65% Ice Attack, 130% Scaled WPN ATK
30 FP, 75% Ice Attack, 140% Scaled WPN ATK
Crawling Spikes:
38 FP, 30% Ice Attack, 70% Scaled WPN ATK
36 FP, 40% Ice Attack, 80% Scaled WPN ATK
34 FP, 50% Ice Attack, 90% Scaled WPN ATK
32 FP, 60% Ice Attack, 100% Scaled WPN ATK
30 FP, 70% Ice Attack, 110% Scaled WPN ATK
Expanding Ice:
38 FP, 35% Ice Attack, 85% Scaled WPN ATK
36 FP, 45% Ice Attack, 95% Scaled WPN ATK
34 FP, 55% Ice Attack, 105% Scaled WPN ATK
32 FP, 65% Ice Attack, 115% Scaled WPN ATK
30 FP, 75% Ice Attack, 125% Scaled WPN ATK
Notes and reasoning:
- Cold front had a marginal damage reduction on account of the much higher scaling on ice point impacts.
- Axe kick had a marginal damage decrease because of the knockdown it can provide.
- Rapid kick had a moderate damage increase because it has no excess effects (Still useful against cobra, useless against matador, etc).
- All Fox skills changed to scale slightly more with primary stat (Will) rather than Ice Attack (Skill), to keep primary stat importance roughly the same as its Hare and Bear counterparts. The expected difference between Ice Attack and Scaled Weapon ATK was found to be roughly 1:2, so if this is correct the damage on Crawling Spikes and Expanding Ice should be roughly the same as they are currently.
- Icicle Spear had a sizable damage increase because it requires a large amount of momentum to setup and sacrifices a powerful buff (Bringing it to the highest scaling attack for Fox Verglas, like on live).
- FP costs reduced for Fox skills to an even 25% upward scaling from Hare because they were borderline absurd. Hare = 1.25x fp costs of Bear, Fox = 1.25x fp costs of Hare. Recommend an FP reduction tied to Chimera style'd skills in some way, shape, or form.
Re: Bear, Fox, Hare - Rendar - 06-18-2016
@Kameron8
What about weapons that have higher than 100% weapon scaling (or less than 100% weapon scaling?)
Will a weapon that has say.. 85% wpn scaling be using 100% of their stat? What about a weapon that has 110%, etc?
Re: Bear, Fox, Hare - Kameron8 - 06-18-2016
"Rendar" Wrote:@Kameron8
What about weapons that have higher than 100% weapon scaling (or less than 100% weapon scaling?)
Will a weapon that has say.. 85% wpn scaling be using 100% of their stat? What about a weapon that has 110%, etc?
Weapons over 100% (Ex: Needler) 'lose out' on scaling. All weapons are treated as 100% for the skills.
Re: Bear, Fox, Hare - Kameron8 - 07-04-2016
Requesting this be moved to normal Balance Fu now that it has made it to live.
Re: Bear, Fox, Hare - Lolzytripd - 07-05-2016
the Verglas fox skills are fancy fist weapon skills not spells, They don't scale on tomes, only one fist scales on willpower.
rant
They do pure ice damage and Dev likes his elemental abilities to lean on their elemental atk.
I'm okay with the fp costs
also the way weapon scaling on skills works is for instance with needler or the magical fist using 150% scaled weapon attack (str 110%)*1.5 =165% str scaling and (65%65%)*1.5 and 95% str and will scaling
which is why you don't want to go huge into scaled weapon attack on abilities because the damage will get huge
and before you say it should keep a will scaling because old times, nothing is sacred, setting sun scales on strength now.
Re: Bear, Fox, Hare - Kameron8 - 07-05-2016
"Lolzytripd" Wrote:the Verglas fox skills are fancy fist weapon skills not spells, They don't scale on tomes, only one fist scales on willpower.
rant
They do pure ice damage and Dev likes his elemental abilities to lean on their elemental atk.
I'm okay with the fp costs
also the way weapon scaling on skills works is for instance with needler or the magical fist using 150% scaled weapon attack (str 110%)*1.5 =165% str scaling and (65%65%)*1.5 and 95% str and will scaling
which is why you don't want to go huge into scaled weapon attack on abilities because the damage will get huge
and before you say it should keep a will scaling because old times, nothing is sacred, setting sun scales on strength now.
This post simply does not make sense. Dev has stated he thinks the loss of identity for Hare and Fox skills are valid concerns, and currently the only way to scale efficiently with their abilities is to stack strength. Because all of the fist weapons scale almost entirely with strength, with slight exception to the Spelledge and one large exception to Mortismo, any Verglas who wants to deal moderately good damage needs strength. However, Fox and Hare skill trees shouldn't care about strength, and trying to patch up this issue by introducing stuff like 100% cel scaling fist, or 100% will scaling fists, just means everyone with that stat can still use every single tree at full potential. What you have said makes almost no sense to me, and as far as I can tell it's a rehashed version of "It works for me so stop complaining".