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+--- Thread: Regarding Romek (/showthread.php?tid=3228)
Regarding Romek - Neus - 08-16-2016
This is my reply to a PM I received recently regarding concerns about metagaming and GM abuse.
"Devourer Of Souls" Wrote:As far as I understand, this doesn't involve you or your characters, so I'm not sure why you're PMing me about it instead of the first party. And ,if Nuka Cola is in fact NuclearWinterSoldier, I don't know why they're bothering GMs about it, either, because again, this doesn't involve them. Nor do I think they have any right at all to call Chaos's credibility into question when they sat around, knowing Sderg and Megablues were duping donation items, and acted like it was okay. Nor did they handle this situation maturely at all.
So overall, I don't know what you want me to do. None of the screenshots you sent, nor the various people I've talked to give me any reason to believe that this was metagaming. If anything, Romek was metagaming by going to the arena and sparring, despite being told he was banned from doing so, pretending the NPC guards aren't there; THAT is 'hardcore metagaming'. The only issue I found any fault with was that Romek's player was not warned clearly at his last violent offense that if he committed another violent act he would be executed. At the same time, from what I've gathered, he has a lengthy criminal record and this came as no surprise at all, so I'm not going to overturn that decision, either. I have, however, instructed the GMs to be more clear and decisive, so that when this sort of situation happens again, the criminal player can't act like it's a surprise and try to weasel out of it.
I've also been told that the claims that you'd be banned for etc involving a certain godhood plot-line are completely false; if you have proof otherwise, please send it my way, but I haven't seen anything that suggests otherwise.
Sorry to hash this out in public like this but, the things I've said have been reported incorrectly through the individual who sent me this PM more than once and so I'd feel more comfortable doing so this way. I don't mean this as an insult to that person in any way, and hopefully they understand I simply want my message to to reach the person this actually matters for as I intended.
If the involved party(ies) want to discuss the topic they may do so in this thread, provided they can do so maturely. If you aren't involved, you probably shouldn't post, especially not memes (this means you, Snake).
Re: Regarding Romek - Exxy - 08-16-2016
I believe Romek (or his PC, whichever is more applicable) had been warned about an imminent permanent vacation in the past but not in the most recent of times (although once should be more-than-enough or just take in the fact of his GIANT record).
But I could be wrong, there's a lot of things I miss due to either being in other places or simply not being online (or not being able to be a fly-on-the-wall).
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As for implied Godhood, I've spoken to the person about it a lot and to be honest I can understand the concern/adversity that comes from this being a "thing." The concern/adversity being nothing directly directed to the person themselves but we're playing a game I recall in the past, denounced /any/ form of "major" plot-changers such as overthrowing the empire or even things as simple as moving the arena through IC methods that would be played out with either not acknowledging said thing or saying it can never happen for x-brick wall reason. This kind of thing just being so openly welcomed by you and the GMs gives an immediate whiplash effect on me and -several- others especially when it's something so fickle of a thing that can really 'pedestal' them.
Admittedly I fall in line with the majority going "no" for reasons and issues I've already addressed (either to the person themselves or the community as a whole with them present) but I'll concede at this point if the discussion would just end.
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At least that's my outlook on the matters directly connected to me that are listed so far. If you (directed towards Neus) personally would like to wish to hear my thoughts on it (being implied Godhood) despite me assuming you'd rather it just be over, feel free to message me whichever way best works for you.
P.S. Can you please change the thread topic to something more appropriate? It's a bit confusing at first-glance when you read the OP since it concerns many more topics than just Romek (maybe "State of the Union" or some other such that could be a funny reference).
Re: Regarding Romek - Neus - 08-16-2016
This topic is primarily concerning Romek, if you want to discuss events then I'd suggest you make a topic about it because I don't really have much to say on it myself, but I will respond to a few things you said.
"Exxy" Wrote:As for implied Godhood, I've spoken to the person about it a lot and to be honest I can understand the concern/adversity that comes from this being a "thing." The concern/adversity being nothing directly directed to the person themselves but we're playing a game I recall in the past, denounced /any/ form of "major" plot-changers such as overthrowing the empire or even things as simple as moving the arena through IC methods that would be played out with either not acknowledging said thing or saying it can never happen for x-brick wall reason. This kind of thing just being so openly welcomed by you and the GMs gives an immediate whiplash effect on me and -several- others especially when it's something so fickle of a thing that can really 'pedestal' them.
I'm not really interested in hearing anyone's thoughts on it right now, but I would be interested in hearing feedback once it's all over (as far as I understand the plot is still ongoing). Opinions 'in the moment' are fairly useless because they are often kneejerk reactions instead of letting the entirety of the situation play out, sitting down and processing it. Also, it really shouldn't come as much of a surprise; I've always supported plots started by players. I've just always responded with appropriate roleplay in kind.
1) Sawrock's plot was given the okay, for example. His goal wasn't to 'overthrow the empire', it was to cause a war between Oniga and Sigrogana, and he did 'assassinate' the Emperor but for whatever reason, the Emperor did not stay dead. I didn't make him 'not die' to brick wall Sawrock's goal, that's just what happened due to several pre-established factors. He has been called the 'Immortal King' in that lore tips (which also says he's been alive and ruling for 300 years), which was around for a good while before that plot happened, for example. My intent wasn't to brick wall anyone, it was to uphold the lore I've established.
2) I don't recall any efforts reaching me about moving the arena and I don't know why that would be something PCs think they could decide, when it's Tarson's arena.
So yeah. I've pretty much always been okay with player plots as a concept. Don't be surprised.
Re: Regarding Romek - Exxy - 08-16-2016
Very well then, I would say I'll let you know how it goes over but I'm not exactly in the position to do so (I'll have little-to-no involvement due to IC reasons that my character(s) would not be involved).
As for the arena comment, it was a thought I had forever ago (for multiple points of logic that I felt were at least somewhat sound) that got shot down by -multiple- people that wasn't anything short of brick walling. I'll be sure to take any idea I think has some value directly to you in the future.
Thank you for the reply, Neus.
Re: Regarding Romek - Egil - 08-17-2016
Hello! I’d appreciate it if only Dev, the GMs, and those directly involved with this incident (Sarah, Psych, etc) replied to what I have to say here. If said people would like to clarify/correct anything that I say, feel free to. I have no qualms with irrelevant replies (or replies made by irrelevant people) being deleted.
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Firstly, I’d like to make it clear that I misunderstood the nature of Romek’s ban from sparring at the arena. From what I understood, the ban disallowed Romek from sparring within the arena (as in, with NPCs). Since that warning was given, I have not used Tarson to fight within the arena. There were multiple times where I took fights away from the arena, and it was to avoid triggering certain guards that IC’ly have a poor relationship with Romek or whom Romek thought would watch eagerly for anything that could be construed as an illegal act and arrest him- not because I thought that I was banned from fighting on arena grounds. There were also a plethora of times where, since the warning, Romek sparred on arena grounds and infront of player guards that knew of the warning that didn’t say anything to him. Off the top of my head, the guards that left Romek alone to spar on arena grounds include Sarah, Kameron, Diz, and Spo. There were other times where guards asked him to take his fights elsewhere or otherwise leave, and I assumed that they were simply unwilling to deal with a potential mess created by a spar with Romek and I obeyed not because I understood the warning as a ban from fighting at all near the arena, but as a ban from arena fighting.
That is why Romek was going around and asking for a fight at 3 AM on a Saturday- not for the sake of ignoring NPC guards or just waiting until no guards were online, but because I genuinely did not think I was doing something wrong OOC’ly. From there, Sarah’s non-guard character, Remiel, accepted the invitation to a spar and we began. Unfortunately, I also misunderstood another aspect of SL2- perhaps because I’ve only been playing for a few months and haven’t been told otherwise by anyone- that damage done in PvP has no bearing on what occurs in IC. I thought that the 600 damage Overloads being thrown by Remiel were dangerous because of the damage being inflicted when, in actuality, they were relatively harmless since Remiel never RP’d them being something that could cause serious injury. This misunderstanding is also why Romek’s spar-ending shot involved an emote where he shot Remiel in the face. Not only was the damage minimal (39, iirc) but I had not emoted it as a headshot or a killing blow or anything disfiguring, and I had seen similar situations where characters had their backs broken or eyes attacked or what have you at the arena and guards did nothing. Thus, I thought there was nothing wrong with the emote. Remiel proceeding to Silvermist back to full health reinforced the idea that Romek had not inflicted any serious damage, especially since I had never intended for him to do so.
Psych, who was there on his non-guard alt Tobias, emoted about seeing the NPC guards calling for backup- basically, RPing for the NPC guards since no GM was around to do so. Remiel charges to attack Romek- at this point, it’s not a spar. It’s her trying to commit assault/murder. However, neither Psych nor Spo, who are both player guards there on non-guard characters, emote that the NPC guards attempt to stop Remiel’s attack. Thus, Romek engages (because he is not the sort to run away from people trying to kill him) and Remiel ends up one-shotting Romek with an Overload and PvP ends again. At that point, because he was being attacked and no one was coming to his aid, Romek struggles back to his feet and sarcastically asks for a third round, which she was not eager to oblige. A third round of PvP starts anyway, where Romek is attempting to take down Remiel- not kill, but merely knock out for good. Right before Romek is about land the final shot, however, Psych approaches on his guard alt, Rowen, and asks for the participants to cease and desist.
I flee the PvP and turn to face Rowen. Remiel leaves the arena, no one stopping her from doing so. Rowen explains to Romek that he isn’t supposed to be fighting at the arena and declares that he is going to be arrested. While Romek and Rowen are arguing, Sarah returns to the arena on her guard-alt. At that point, Romek is verbally resisting arrest, saying that he isn’t going. He calls them out on how they let Remiel leave after she, in his eye(s), tried to kill him, which prompts Rowen to declare that she will also be arrested. Thus, when Rowen asks for Sarah’s guard to commence with the arrest, Romek is taken in without a fight or an attempt to run.
At that point, I was uncomfortable with how things had gone, seeing as how I believed that Romek was not barred from fighting around the arena (which is the reason that Rowen IC’ly stated was why Romek was being arrested) and that, because of the low damage and intent of the faceshot, nothing he did towards Remiel warranted an arrest. So, after chatting with Spo about it and them getting confirmation from Chaos that the situation could be omitted as long as Sarah agreed to it, a skype chat was established between the three of us. There, Sarah was adamant about not wanting to omit, and when I asked her why, she explained that she wanted Romek to die.
I think that everyone can understand that stating one’s desire for another’s character to die does not confirm metagrudging. It, however, does bring it onto the table as a possibility. And once that’s a valid possibility, GMs should be brought in to handle the situation and it shouldn’t be solely discussed amongst players. However, Chaos did not respond to any of my messages about the situation. I thought, at first, that he was merely offline/busy, but I confirmed with others who were messaging him about other things and getting responses that he was simply ignoring me. Why? I still do not know. However, since I thought at that time that Chaos was solely responsible for the guards, I did not want to run to another GM with the issue and make it seem as if I was trying to play them against one another.
So, instead, I took a screenshot of where Sarah stated that she did not want to omit at all because she wanted Romek dead, boxed out all the names except for mentions of Romek, and then sent it to a few people to get some advice on how to move forward. From there, Nuke decided to make a post in the salt threads of the SL2 discord chat (which I left a long while before this happened) in order to try and garner Chaos’ attention. No names were mentioned, and there was a request given for no names to be mentioned. However, Psych proceeded to give out names in his response to Nuke, and the shitstorm that erupted from there was completely not what I had wanted or nor had sought to instigate.
Sawrock ended up speaking to me about the situation and, after reviewing everything, he explained that there were very few guards on at the time, so Sarah interacting with Romek on her guard after their spar wasn’t proof of metagrudging. Since neither I nor anyone else could produce logs of the ingame happenings, it became my word against their’s- and, apparently, everyone except me that had been present was repeating this narrative:
- Romek started the first fight with the lethal intent
- At the end of that first fight, Romek attempted to murder Remiel
- Remiel asked for a second spar, Romek accepted
- Romek got KO’d in said second spar
- Romek got up and attacked Remiel in a non-consented third spar
- Romek was arrested for trespassing/attempted murder only by Rowen, not Sarah’s guard
That’s the gist of the argument made against me, which include many differences to the story I am telling. However, without ingame logs, I couldn’t do anything except wait for Sawrock to deliberate with the other GMs about it.
At this point, many people were messaging me about the situation. Some were supportive while others simply had questions, but the majority were expressing two things- either that they were either angry with me because they thought that I was spreading bullshit about Sarah in order to make her lose friends or that they also wanted Romek dead… or both. This is also around the time that Dyst contacted me with questions about the specifics of what had went on and, during that discussion, I lost my cool and expressed to her (and Fern, in a private DM) that I wanted Sarah removed from the guardship for the perceived metagrudging and abuse of guard powers. Regardless of what led up to me being angry, it was wrong for me to say that- not only because that wouldn’t be up to me in the slightest, but because it took away from what was most important to me; as in, Romek’s fate. The GMs were clear that Romek would either be executed publicly in Cellsvich or shipped off to Chaturanga where he’d be executed in private- avoiding that is infinitely more important to me than whatever is done (or not done) to Sarah.
However, as soon as I had made the declaration that Sarah should be removed from the guardship, the nature of the conversation changed. I was no longer a possible victim of misunderstandings/metagrudging that simply didn’t want to die over said misunderstandings/metagrudging, but a sleezy asshole that was trying to slander Sarah in order to avoid consequences. People pointed to the topic where I complained of GMs enabling people to escape consequences, and called me a hypocrite for essentially wanting the same thing to happen here for myself. The GMs were unwilling to believe that I had misunderstood the arena ban or the relationship between damage in PvP, intent, and what actually occurs in roleplay, citing my desire towards Sarah’s status as a guard player as evidence of me being dishonest with them. They determined that I was lying, grasping at straws, and that no wrongdoing had occurred, so no omit will be occurring. I then gave my word that I would not argue with the GMs further about their decision, and left it at that.
I do not hold it against Sarah. Her wanting Romek dead is not an unpopular opinion, and her desire to make that happen for Fern’s sake is not a terribly evil one. In my eyes, friends should bring issues like this to one another instead of doing what she did, but then, it isn’t her fault for betraying a friend. It’s my fault for not recognizing that we were not friends in the first place.
I do not hold it against Psych. He is either misremembering what occurred or simply interpreted it all a different way. I do not believe that he is maliciously lying for the sake of getting Romek killed. He is just speaking about what he feels actually happened.
I do not hold it against the GMs. They’re performing a duty, even if some would argue that they aren’t performing it correctly or justly. In their shoes and with these circumstances, I may have come to the same conclusion as them. I can’t hold myself up on a moral pedestal with that being the case.
I do not hold it against you, Dev. Your decision to uphold what the GMs decided is not something that makes me angry. It’s miraculous that you involved yourself in this matter in the first place, and I’m grateful for that alone.
At the end of the day, I can only blame myself for blowing up while speaking to GMs and for not being more careful with a character that I care about…
… And, yet, I also do not hold anything against those that have spoken up in defense of me. The oldbies with their own grievances that see this as the turning point for change. The true friends I have that don’t want to see me meekly accept what they also perceive to be an injustice. The folks that feel as if there are systematic issues that need to be addressed beyond the problems with this very situation. Everyone that is on ‘my side’ have their own reasons for being here, and I do not believe that any of them are wrong. This isn’t to say that the majority should get what they want, or that a proposed outcome must occur if enough people scream about it. However, the fact that over twenty individual people are not content with what happened and desire that it be re-addressed should not be taken lightly, either.
If you actually do have access to the ingame logs of that morning, Dev, then you can confirm/deny most, if not all, of the claims and rumors within this situation. Everything, from:
- Did Romek start the fight?
- Did Romek start the fight with lethal intent?
- Did Remiel declare lethal intent?
- Did Romek try to kill Romek with the face-shot?
- Was the second fight consensual?
- Was the third fight consensual?
- Did NPC guards react to all unlawful acts performed, or just Romek’s?
- Did Sarah’s guard come very quickly behind Rowen?
- Did Sarah’s guard participate in the arrest?
- Did the guards involved have the intention of arresting Remiel before Romek spoke up about them?
… Would be cleared up, along with other things. With that, it can be made clear whether the situation was sketchy/messed up enough to warrant something being done about it (Ie an omit) or if I’m lying and nothing should change. I know that the easiest choice is to do nothing and just let what is going to happen, happen- and the easiest choice is not necessarily the worst choice in all cases. I also understand that many players, including a GM, OOC’ly want Romek to die or for me to no longer play SL2 in general. Thus, if you allow Romek to live on, they are going to be unhappy with you, Dev- either way, there are going to be people who don’t agree with your decision here. So, you can only do what you feel is best and proper in this case, after considering all the variables. Ultimately, Dev, it is in your hands- and, just like with how I said I would not argue with the GMs after their final judgement, I will not argue with you once your final judgement is given.
If you choose to not look into it further and nothing changes, I will understand.
If you look into it and nothing changes, I will understand.
If you look into it and changes I don’t like occur, I will understand.
At the very least, if you look into it, then regardless of the outcome, I will be grateful to you for taking time away from improving upon the mechanics of SL2 in order to address a serious concern that has to do with the roleplay portions of SL2. An open mind makes you more respectable in my eyes.
I want this to be resolved in a way that satisfies the most people as possible, and I believe that that will include a future for the community in which metagaming/godmodding/etc is handled in the moment instead of days later, and that guards are clearer with their intentions and that the arena has rules listed out for anyone to see, and that GMs do not pick sides or play favorites and simply looks at the facts available, and that roleplayers do not antagonize eachother for OOC reasons and, instead, discuss these issues openly with one another in order to make an enjoyable experience for everyone, and that people no longer avoid events simply because they feel that GMs railroad or only look out for their OOC friends in them, and that fun is the focus of the community instead of petty drama. I believe that this future is possible even if Romek ends up executed for this and it is concluded that no metagrudging occurred.
The other issues that people have that are beyond this situation… I don’t know enough to comment on. I can only say that those are the problems of other people, and that it is up to them to make their own cases for those issues.
I won’t be angry if you disregard this entire post and myself, Dev, even if others will be. I did not handle this situation perfectly. I made mistakes. I was not careful with a character that I cared about. These are things I cannot deny.
No matter what, I am happy about the fun moments I had in SL2, the good friends I made because of SL2, and the opportunity to enjoy the universe you crafted within SL2, Dev.
To all those that I was rude to when I got angry during this debacle, regardless of how deserved it may or may not have been- I am sorry.
Thank you, everyone, for your time and patience.
Re: Regarding Romek - Sarah54321 - 08-17-2016
Greetings, I suppose that it's about high-time I give my own word upon this problem that's grown to be more than it was originally supposed to be. I can't say I'm good at large posts, but I will do my best.
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Starting with how I wished Romek's death. This is true, I will not deny it. I wanted, and indeed want Romek to be dead. I have nothing wrong with Egil. However, I want to make this crucially clear. I did not make Remiel attack Romek knowing he would be arrested. I did not, in fact, make Remiel attack Romek because of my own apparent hatred towards him.
Remiel had her own agenda with him. She hates Romek with a passion, because of how he treated her and her friends. She is a person that holds grudges very easily, and her wrath is something that can easily be earned.
I did not know if the first fight was lethal or not. The shot to the head was not something that was described enough for me to understand whether it was actually lethal intent or not. I probably should have asked, but it was late at the time. This is the part where I made my first mistake. I had done the following 'wemote'.
"Sparking Lass kept her face covered, mist leaking through her fingers. The blood remained, but the injury seemed to mend."
Something close to that, anyway. I was told that wemoting such a thing was wrong, and I later agreed with it. That should not have been wemoted, and I was correctly warned because of that.
The second fight was after I healed using Hikari. (Using Remedia would restore FP) Remiel then asked him for a fight again, and she struck him with intent to harm him more than necessary, with her electricity to boot. She was not aiming to kill the man, but instead to harm him quite a bit. Perhaps even cripple him. Thus she would be arrested for this.
The third fight is awry, as it happened when both were basically down for the count. The third fight was non-consensual, unlike the other two. Remiel was weakened by the fights before hand, mostly in the Focus cycle. Romek won the third fight, and shot her even after she said "I Give". At this point, it was assault/battery.
After this happened, Rowen came in. Now, Psych and I were both in a call together. He was talking with Romek, and Psych called for back up, both in text and in the call. I decided to hop on my guard to help, just in case. My second strike, as I should not have done this at all, even with enough time between.
Upon the arrest, things began to get filled with drama. I don't remember a whole lot, and even with what I say, it's hard for me to state what did and didn't happen. Spoops has stated most of what is needed to the others. Egil has spoken to me personally, and while there might have been a chance for a compromise to be met, I highly doubt it would be possible for such a thing to happen now, as it's gotten out of simply /us/. Egil, Psych, Myself, Spoops, and the GMs. It's exploded into something else, which I do not want to partake in more than necessary.
In a final say, I just want to say that I did not make my OOC thoughts plague my IC actions. It was my OOC thoughts changing my OOC actions, ie. not wanting to omit it.
Re: Regarding Romek - Chaos - 08-17-2016
I will keep my current response brief:
To me, a decision to omit is an OOC matter by its very nature; you are not playing your character when you are making this choice. The arguments on Sarah metagaming seemed to center on this decision to omit, which is why I've been against the opinion that Sarah metagamed.
On my end, I did not see any messages from you on my end, and I was not asked to join any conversations on the matter. I may have overlooked something, however, so this is likely as much of my fault as well as anyone else's.
That being said, assuming your case is true, I still believe that Romek's arrest would still hold water, since he did shoot someone in the face in what was supposedly a spar. However, if you really want to, we can talk about doing something that can give Romek a shaky chance at freedom.