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+--- Thread: Player Agency: In Airides defense. (/showthread.php?tid=3699)
Re: Player Agency: In Airides defense. - catabur - 11-20-2016
"iStabOreos" Wrote:I've tried this, and I've spoken to Trex about this in local ooc when I had to get a guard escort in order to go OOC (yes this is a thing). Before I get to the main reason I'll say this, even if I had tried to ask a guard to do jail RP, would you really think any of you would with the 'multiple' RP sessions you have? Honestly, I don't think so because people would rather not do that and AFK in the arena or RP in the arena, with others, rather than babysit.
And no, I give you shit for not patrolling in general up until recently, because literally you can run on the high-tails of the NPC meta all you want, it won't really go well, but fuck me right?
The first bit makes sense since Vintaro just decided to break his character out of jail by partying with his alt in the visitor room. To grind or something, I don't really know.
I'm usually fairly open with introducing people to the prisoner life with my lifer, or just standing around with the prisoner if they have a day-long sentence (as I did with Faker and that weird clown). The only problems I have is with people I don't like OOCly or delve into meme-ish interactions that give people headaches.
If you don't try, you don't know.
The NPC "meta" is more along the lines of common sense. If you tried robbing someone in broad daylight, you just can't expect to get off scott free because no players are around, which clearly means no witnesses, too!!! You're in Cellsvich, the capital of the largest human empire. Or shoot off a gun and expect no one to raise a fuss about that (guns are loud as fuck). That doesn't mean it's impossible, there's still some areas that you could get away with a few things. And some more stealth actions (like pickpocketing) that could be done without a big fuss coming over it.
(raynlyn makes a post that isn't at least two paragraphs long? a miracle)
Re: Player Agency: In Airides defense. - Ranylyn - 11-20-2016
"catabur" Wrote:(raynlyn makes a post that isn't at least two paragraphs long? a miracle)
Love you, too. In all seriousness, I see no reason to make a long post when someone is throwing too large a tantrum to read it.
Re: Player Agency: In Airides defense. - iStabOreos - 11-20-2016
"catabur" Wrote:The first bit makes sense since Vintaro just decided to break his character out of jail by partying with his alt in the visitor room. To grind or something, I don't really know.
I'm usually fairly open with introducing people to the prisoner life with my lifer, or just standing around with the prisoner if they have a day-long sentence (as I did with Faker and that weird clown). The only problems I have is with people I don't like OOCly or delve into meme-ish interactions that give people headaches.
If you don't try, you don't know.
The NPC "meta" is more along the lines of common sense. If you tried robbing someone in broad daylight, you just can't expect to get off scott free because no players are around, which clearly means no witnesses, too!!! You're in Cellsvich, the capital of the largest human empire. Or shoot off a gun and expect no one to raise a fuss about that (guns are loud as fuck). That doesn't mean it's impossible, there's still some areas that you could get away with a few things. And some more stealth actions (like pickpocketing) that could be done without a big fuss coming over it.
(raynlyn makes a post that isn't at least two paragraphs long? a miracle)
That's why I told Spo to at least made their guard do more patrolling icly, because well for one, people are going to call foul over the NPC guard crap, even though you're not supposed to ignore them in general, although, people still do. And having an actual guard in the mist of things would help, take the time when Koonie's Vorpal Leporiade(I get this wrong every time, the rabbit people.) attempted to kidnap Lamii's character in the middle of Cellsvich and there were no guards around. (This was before I knew about the @Guard ping in the Discord chat, but bare with me) Krono and a few others had to stop it ourselves, granted it was comical and was great for RP, but still. (Comical being Krono wondering if his chloroform worked or not so he sniffed it himself and passed out only to somehow save the day, yeah, I'm confused on this too.)
So to summarize:
* I would like a more than fair punishment system that's not going to outright kill your character(or anyone's character) for them going to jail X amount of times due to a prank or something minor, however major crimes would be a more harsher punishment to like losing a limb or organ to death. (The Punishment should fit The Crime, so that you'd have to commit another MAJOR offense on top of the shit mountain that is your List of Crimes to be executed, while a minor offense sees you in Prison for the X amount of months. - Flesh Child)
* I guess more guard patrolling and jail RP as a whole for prisoners cause it's already bad enough that it's an ooc isolation from one ooc hour to x amount of months.
* Maybe a reform system? I mean it could work, granted that's what jail is for, but it has to be something like community service.
* (This might be more to the Jail RP bullet) Some people want more to do in the prison like mining or maybe an underground dungeon that leads to no where.
Re: Player Agency: In Airides defense. - iStabOreos - 11-20-2016
"Ranylyn" Wrote:"catabur" Wrote:(raynlyn makes a post that isn't at least two paragraphs long? a miracle)
Love you, too. In all seriousness, I see no reason to make a long post when someone is throwing too large a tantrum to read it.
If you think this is throwing a tantrum then just take candy away from a child the ground them and see what'll happen, all of this is just a flame war against two sides with valid and less than valid points.
Re: Player Agency: In Airides defense. - Lolzytripd - 11-21-2016
The difference between your characters execution and Airides is pretty big.
From the get go you played the villain with him Saw, you were prepared to inevitably lose him.
Airide has been Trying to play a different kind of character, a troubled character with issues, who needs help, who needs friends and support to better himself through character growth, notice how none of his recent crimes match the kind of crime he initially caused.
He's been trying to get others to grab his Rp hooks to help spur on his character's growth as a person, if the majority of guards won't grab his hooks and try to help him work to be a better character how can he justify his character magically performing a personality shift to being a miraculous goody two shoes who causes no harm?
Moving to execute him over a pile of small crimes after larger ones (none of them had the intent of his earlier ones) disrespects Airides wishes to see proper character growth and development.
Re: Player Agency: In Airides defense. - Autumn - 11-21-2016
I honestly don't know how to respond to this thread but my name's been brought up twice now so I might as well reply to that first.
Quote:That's why I told Spo to at least made their guard do more patrolling icly,
I haven't been patrolling as much recently I'll give you that, though I still respond to every single @guard call or when someone messages me directly, I've responded to it about 90% of the time if I'm available, and before all the new guys came in I patrolled around a lot on my own time, this was before when I COULD patrol on my own time.
And secondly, I have mixed feelings on this entire debacle, on one hand it is utterly stupid that a man is getting executed for something like this, though he incited fear in a few select individuals Krono did not fight these folk when they engaged him, it was clear that the man's intention was that of a prank, however these sorts of stunts should not even be pulled in the first place by doing this at all, monsters or people disguised as monsters will be taken as serious threats within the empire's walls, this is why I thought the arrest itself was justified, prank or not.
however after being arrested it was discussed and discussed, and we had already arrested Krono prior to this after he got the warning issued to him from Chaos (Or so we're told by him), so its not a simple case of us immediately rushing to put him onto the block, this is a fair judgement based on his past crimes and the ones we took him in for, and whilst I think that the execution is a more than fair step from the empire, I think the lead up to this has been rather anti-climatic and thus, something I don't really agree with, however this is just what happens within the empire, and that can't be changed really, as Air has said, the empire has made it clear that execution is a very real possibility within the empire's walls after all.
Overall as a character I think Krono has improved dramatically since he had received the warning, from being taken in for Assault, sexual harassment and even Arson (and attempted murder thrown into that one), he recently has improved overall, his most recent bringing ins have extended to:
disturbance of an officer.
(Harassing captain Kcoryas whilst he was on duty and doing his job, however this was mostly due to Krono having a sticker on a book, I cant remember what label it was but this arrest was just pushing it on the boundary, as a bit of criticism towards Saw, but that was an IC thing from Kcoryas as I've been told.)
and inciting terror with illusions, aka: mask of the night lord.
This is nothing compared to his previous record, but his previous record catches back up to him and thats just a sad part about reality, I don't think any of this should be changed, and I will not try to sway anyone's decision in whether he should be executed or not because quite frankly that's just none of my business, however I'd like to note out Krono's improvement as a character has happened, and can be tracked through his current record, and I'd like that much evidence to be apparent for when Chaos eventually posts here, thank you.
Re: Player Agency: In Airides defense. - Slydria - 11-21-2016
... Good grief, this thread blew up. I'm not gonna get into a huge debate but I'll just bring up some things.
- If Airide wants to argue the circumstances and potentially an out, he needs to go to Chaos directly and discuss it with him. All the people complaining and spreading things that aren't so are drumming up unnecessary drama and are not helping his case.
- Krono's execution is not something that has been publicly announced at this time. People who are talking about this ICly are metagaming and need to stop and disregard what has been said ICly, until it is public information.
- The Sigrogana Empire is not America, it's not a democracy. Freedom of speech is not a right given. You can totally get arrested for giving Guards shit. Of course, whether you do or don't depends on how much the Guard wants to take.
- I think a reason that some people don't want to do guard work, beyond real life circumstances, is that it can be a horrible job:
Some players give them so little respect. While sometimes it's understandable, rebellious characters, IC circumstances, etc... it's just ridiculous to see so many players really not grasp the authority they have.
They get way too much abuse lobbed at them, some IC, some OOC. Before the guard system was really established, I had a go at being a Guard. And boy, it was one of the worst experiences I've had in this game and is pretty much why I have very little to do with it.
- While I understand people not liking NPC Guards, that's not good enough to conveniently ignore them. Of course, they can't really interact with you, but it's just mind-numbingly stupid when people just commit a crime in the middle of Cellsvich, as if nobody's gonna notice.
- I agree that a list of laws should be made available (and some clarity into punishments for them).
Though that said, it'll probably never be a complete list, there's bound to be something not accounted for or a rare situation pops up and throws something not mentioned. So it'll probably still come with the stipulation of "if Dev or a GM says it's illegal, it's illegal."
- I also agree that the way charges are given needs to have a good look at. A person having their history of violence tacked onto a non-violent offense is excessive.
While more jail RP would be ideal, sometimes the numbers just aren't there. This could be alleviated by characters who are made specifically for it but I don't think there's a solid way to handle it other than hoping you can get ahold of someone who actually wants to.
I'm also on board with the idea of alternate ways to work down a sentence. Fines for minor crimes. Offers to reduce sentence time for prisoners with good behaviour. That sort of thing.
And things to actually do in prison would be nice.
And finally, I'll stand by whatever Chaos decides for this one, if he really thinks this is the final straw, so be it.
Personally, however, I think Krono definitely deserves the arrest but it would be best to save the execution for when he does something that can definitely be considered a violent or excessive crime. An alternative punishment could be something like confiscating his mask. (Though, taking away someone's right to use a donation item isn't ideal either, kinda sucks to spend real money on an item and not be able to use it after all.)
Re: Player Agency: In Airides defense. - Rendar - 11-21-2016
Having fines in gold seems like a decent start (assuming Chaos doesn't go "10,000 gold for every crime. This stacks ontop of one another"
. Make it reasonable for a person to actually afford.Can't pay the fine? Then you get to do community service. Defending Tannis/Dormeho from black beast attacks, utilizing your skills IC (Like an enchanter being forced to enchant stuff) to help pay it off.
It's really not that hard to think of goods ways to deal with crimes other than "Okay, you can't play your character for 5+ ooc months because you pulled a prank and wore a donation mask".
Also. Is it just me or has this fucking mask done NOTHING but cause trouble IC and OOC since it's invention.
Re: Player Agency: In Airides defense. - Lolzytripd - 11-21-2016
It also bothers me that an expansionist Empire best compared to Rome, just executes usable prisoners.
Rome was heavily supported by prison internment slave labors. Strong prisoners skilled in fighting would be put into prisoner Legions and sent to fight as the first wave, if they lived long enough to fight of their debt to the empire they could be set free. ( one current campaign could be an eternal fight against the snake men of the argentyle cavern)
Most characters are imprisoned for civil disputes blown up into larger crimes. They aren't like the droves of bandits and monsters that force the empire to be a heavy handed discipliner, most of these characters have proven them self useful Via Fighting of the incursions of BDP's and/or Fighting off the hordes of black beasts that attack the empires lesser fortified towns.
Re: Player Agency: In Airides defense. - Chaos - 11-21-2016
In response to the OP:
Quote:*Airide doesn't want his character to die, he just wants to roleplay escaping to laws end or something.If he wants to attempt an escape, or if some of his (IC) friends/family/lovers want to try and bust him out, they are free to contact me with their plans. (Whether or not said plans work is another thing entirely)
However, I have heard nothing from either side concerning this, only so much as a demand to introduce a 'reform system' from Airide.
Quote:*He originally wanted roleplay reforming his criminal character, but no guard ever attempted the roleplay to get this started despite airide's wishes.Really? Considering all the demanding complaints he's made during a few incarcerations, this comes as a surprise to me.
Either way, assuming that there was absolutely no way for him to make up for this outside of imprisonment, Fort Arjav offers almost nothing in the way of reform, serving more as a rather grim statement on what awaits those who break the laws.
Quote:*Airide was force arrested against without the choice to flee the scene by two guard players, He wasn't defeated in combat or anything, he was just bullied into accepting a party invite to fort arjav, He had no idea chaos would then slate his character for execution.Funny, because everything I've seen so far tells me that this is false. I'd like to ask you to provide some more solid evidence on this matter.
As for that last bit....
Quote:*Chaos cites and warning that krono would be considered for execution post march 2016 on ALL future violations, Airide cannot find proof of this warning anywhere.
Quote:[3/15/2016 10:29:06 PM] Chaos: Krono will get The Warning (see: if they get arrested again, they will be executed), but only for Major/Severe crimes.
If, by some chance, Airide's Skype failed to load this message for him and I can visibly see that much, then this execution won't be happening. Otherwise, it is certainly NOT for 'all violations'. He would've been killed over his anti-Guard propaganda (and the disrespect of an officer) if that was the case.
For the record, his recent charge is considered a Major crime.
Quote:*Krono was arrested for using a donation item to spook some people who were meming pretty hard in IC.Allow me to clarify what, from my understanding, occurred:
1. Someone who had a fear of Spatials (or otherwise reacted badly to them) was in the middle of Cellsvich
2. Krono decided, whether it was on his own or with another, to prey upon said person via Mask of the Night's Lord
3. Krono goes up to the Someone, before taking on the form of a '(Spatial) Ghost'
4. Predictably, that Someone did not take it very well, and retaliated out of fear for their life
5. Panic ensues; two outsiders jump in to restrain Krono (who's trying to flee) or (for the most part) start screaming about what's going on
6. A guard eventually arrives and takes Krono, the Someone, and the two people who went to restrain Krono over to Fort Arjav
7. Arrests ensue
You're telling me that all he did was a 'harmless prank' on 'some people'. (Whether true or false, the part about IC memes is irrelevant to the case at hand) Here's the issues I see with that viewpoint:
1. He did this in the middle of Cellsvich, the capital of a land that has been heavily plagued with random attacks from monsters, people and combinations thereof. I will delve further into this a little later in this post.
2. He knew he was doing this 'prank' to someone who was very likely to badly react to the form that Krono took, yet did so anyways, and shared no expense in doing it right in front of the aforementioned someone.
3. He was warned about taking on the form of a monster in such a manner (or in a related manner) by the Guards prior to this incident, yet he decided to do this anyways.
With all of this in mind, here's what I think: Regardless of how you drum this up, I find it very hard to believe that the character was 'merely pranking'. This is more akin to 'pranking' someone by acting like an armed terrorist in an airport, and very much a staple case of inducing panic; which, in turn, induced violence.
This also brings me to:
Quote:*Chaos used a an old event that happened 10 IC years ago. an assassination attempt event he ran on the emperor as basis to punish people for using the monster mask donation item.Absolutely incorrect. As a follow-up to one of the counters to your previous bullet point, here's a list of what Sigrogana has had to deal with since the past few IC years:
1. DAILY Black Beast attacks on Dormeho and/or Tannis
2. Bandits (w/ monster assistance), i.e. the 'Circus Caravan' attack on the Badlands Arena
3. A series of coordinated Undead attacks upon the Badlands Arena
4. Various instances of rogue Mechanations attacking and attempting to kidnap other Mechanations/some Shaitans
5. Two groups that utilized Black Beast attacks in order to (attempt to) kill people amidst the chaos
6. Abomination attack on Cellsvich, and the short-lived assassination of Sigrogana's Emperor (all perfomed by Sawrock)
With all of this taking place in Sigrogana's recent history, it shouldn't be unreasonable to assume that your average civilian is afraid of monsters suddenly busting in to kill everyone, and certainly not the kind of Sigrogana-centric impact that should be handwaved because 'it can get someone's character killed off'. It's most certainly NOT JUST Bloeden's gang of abominations that make Krono's mask use an issue, it's that and several other attacks, along with the ever-looming Black Beast threat, that forces the Empire to view what they would consider 'taking on a monster's form' to be a cause for concern. ESPECIALLY when it's done to someone who's bound to not take said form's appearance very well.
....And no, this didn't 'ruin masks for everyone'. Chaturanga shouldn't be that hard on MotNL users in comparison to Sigrogana.
Quote:Airide should be allowed have his character stay alive, his character isn't an extremist murderer or revolutionary, just a punk that has committed quite a few misdemeanors over the OOC year.
What he mostly committed (and got put on record for) over the OOC year is a significant chain of violent crimes, ranging from simple Assault to Arson (w/ Attempted Murder on a family) to Sexual Assault. This is what he was warned over, and just because he didn't take a life (or break someone's [REDACTED]) with those attempts does not mean that he's automatically exempt from the Empire's wrath.
Quote:also I feel that as ofA GM is capable of threatening (aka 'Warning') permadeath when a character has committed enough serious, repeated crimes to bring up the question, 'why the hell is the 'execution-happy' empire not doing anything about this?'. When the line that the GM has drawn (via Warning) is crossed, and a Guard(s) successfully arrests and imprisons their character, it's just about over. There is potential for escape or rescue, yes, but if you were told what would happen and you did it anyways, you knew what you were in for.
1b - Forcing death onto another person's character falls under the "no godmodding" rule. Only the person who's playing the character can ensure that the character is killed off.
should precede the GM's right to kill of criminals
Quote:I don't feel that the Setting or the empire is harsh is an excuse or reason for chaos to be in the right, due to the fact that this stance of the empire was created through chaos's direct control and influence over the guard system.The Empire's 'less jail more guillotine' stance was Dev's creation, and a part of the lore for SL2 at its core. I will not deny that I did make a stance through the actions of the Guard: The Empire apparently became less focused on just chopping heads off and more focused on (long-term) imprisonment. Considering the implications of the base lore (I.e. More serious crimes, I.e. Murder or Treason, would result not in long sentences, but death), I don't think I made a bad decision here.
TL;DR
You want me to: Acknowledge that Airide just wants to play his character, and that I should drop the execution and allow him to escape imprisonment because of that and your perception on what he did in Cellsvich.
My response to that: Yes, I am aware that Airide doesn't want to lose his character, even though he has a poor manner of communicating it to me. I am also aware that he is far less violent nowadays than he was back when he had to get the Warning. However, as far as I perceive this, Krono committed a crime that would be classified as 'crossing the line', and barring potential issues*, I will likely move on towards his execution.
*....However, there are three potential issues I can see with this situation:
1. Airide's Skype did not display the Warning message
2. Airide's Warning might not have been clear enough
3. Krono's panic-inducing could be ultimately inadequate as a reason to approach execution
If any one of these three potential issues are an actual problem, I will drop the execution, clarify the Warning and handle Krono's sentence from there.
....As for certain other posts....