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+--- Thread: Hit vs Evade Bonus Fu (/showthread.php?tid=3953)
Hit vs Evade Bonus Fu - Slydria - 12-30-2016
This is a thread most specifically aimed at certain Hit and Evade effects that I feel are a bit too overbearing right now.
Hit Bonuses:
Galren (Magnetize equal to half Earth Damage for 3 Rounds, longer with the Geomancy talent)
This probably needs it the most, maybe a quarter damage instead of half and even then it really should have a maximum cap of say 50 at the very most to stop excessively high bonuses from Charge Minded spells.
Bloodhunt (+1 Hit per 1% of opponent's missing HP)
Even after the nerf, I still think this is too good, perhaps it could be halved to +1 per 2% missing HP.
Blessed (+Scaled FAI Hit, additional +10 with the Devotion Talent)
I really like Blessed but if you build FAI and you want to hit things, it's a no brainer. I think it should probably be half FAI.
Focused Mind (+25 Hit with Guns when Charged, +50 Hit when Overcharged @ Rank 5)
Gunners already build Skill so this just compounds their accuracy. I'd say it should be lowered to +3 per Rank instead of +5.
Magnet Shell (LV Shell Power*5 Magnetize for 6 Rounds, +40 @ Rank 3 with One Overcharge)
This can be a scary shell for dodgers, the only saving grace is you have to hit them but once you do, you won't be missing anytime soon. I'd say bump this down to Shell Power*3 for 3 Rounds instead. (+24 at Rank 3 with One Overcharge.)
Aerial Attacker (+Scaled SAN + 5 Hit when Airborne)
Corbies are incredibly good at hitting things because of how much benefit they get from SAN since it's compounded by Golden Eyes which gives +1 Hit per Scaled SAN after 20. At 40 Scaled SAN, they'll get a combined 65 Hit for being Airborne. How about it scales on half SAN?
Bright Bishop (Glowing equal to half the damage dealt for 3 Rounds)
I think it's too strong since it's tied to damage, what if X for this Skill is equal to Rank*5 instead of half the damage?
Zugzwang (+5 Power, +25 Hit @ Rank 5 vs Feared enemies)
Prophylaxis (+22 Hit @ Rank 5 for 2 Rounds when you take Scaled WIL+9 or less physical damage)
These two aren't so bad alone but BK can access both of them and they already have access to Bright Bishop and Flatfoot so they have plenty of things that make it easy to connect. I think one of these effects could stand to be changed into something that isn't a hit bonus. Perhaps Prophylaxis increasing Critical instead?
Armor of Eyes (+UL Hit, Max: 19)
Staff of Eyes (+UL Hit, Max: 24)
Again, on their own, they're not too bad but they're an easy choice for amplifying hit stacking. Could perhaps not be able to stack with each other or the hit bonus being negated if Blinded? Maybe both?
Flanking Bonus (+Scaled GUI Hit when not attacking their front)
I feel like the addition of this mechanic unfairly skewed things in Accuracy's favor on a count of no new mechanics being added for Evade. I'd say either halve the GUI scaling outright or at least from the sides.
Evade Penalties:
Flatfoot (-15% Evade @ Rank 5 when Bashing enemies until their next turn)
Felhook (-3% Evade per SS until their next turn)
My biggest gripe is probably the %, we've all seen with old-school Kensei how strong %s can be. Bash is a 1M skill so it's pretty easy to just throw it out whenever. Felhook is a lot more limiting to be fair and Boxer doesn't benefit so much from the effect.
Perhaps -20 Evade for Flatfoot, despite being a Main Class Skill and it only lasting until their next turn, it is a cheap 1M move.
And -5 Evade per SS on Felhook? It can be a tad stronger than most sources but it's also more situational.
Evade Bonuses:
Fortune Wind (Scaled LUC + 13 Evade @ Rank 5 for 3 Rounds)
LUC is already a stat utilized for Evade, Fortune Wind only compounds it's effectiveness. I'd say it should be halved but perhaps +1 duration to compensate and of course, a stronger secondary effect. (Damage equal to 3x the Evade bonus + 120% Wind ATK?)
Distortion (+50 Evade @ Rank 5 for 3 Rounds)
It has no stat requirement so there's really no reason for an evasive Spellthief to not grab this. I'd say cut it down to +30.
Protection from Arrows (+40 Evade vs Bows @ Rank 5)
While Bows certainly have it easy on the hit department. This is a bit of a screw you, especially when Martial Artists already get Unarmored Prowess. I'd say halve this effect.
Green-Scale Tunic (+1 Evade per 1% of attacker's missing FP, Max: UL*2, 38)
Getting a person down to 38% of their FP is pretty easy during a fight with this armor. I think to make this fairer, it could stand to be +1 Evade per 2% of the attacker's missing FP. Still strong but takes longer to get to that point.
Hit Penalties:
Blind (-100 Hit, -50 with Blindfighting)
Blind being so strong makes Blindfighting a necessary evil for basic attackers. It's also pretty unfair from a PvE perspective. Basic attacking monsters that get blinded and have no autohits are rendered useless while some monsters (looking at you Winged Guardian) can give a lot of trouble earlier on with Blind.
Like a lot of these suggestions, I'd say reduce it to -50 Hit and have Blindfighting reduce it to either -25 or -30.
Bright Shell (Charge: -Hit equal to Charge Power*5 (-60 with One Overcharge and Rank 5 Charge Shell) for 2 Rounds)
This has a similar problem to Magnet Shell, I'd say this effect should be updated, how about it creates an area of Light Shafts around the target of LV equal to Charge Power*3 (36 with One Overcharge) for 3 Rounds? Not only is it not as powerful, unlike the old effect, you can move out of the Light Shafts to avoid the penalty.
Smoke Screen (-50 Hit @ Rank 5 for those standing in it)
Smoke Screen is a bit of a weird one to me. I feel like it could be halved but perhaps instead standing in the smoke doesn't just give you a hit penalty but an evade bonus as well. How about -25 Hit but +25 Evade? I think it would make it a bit more tactical.
Yomidori (-30 Hit on opponents who attack or damage you)
My biggest gripe with Yomidori is the fact that it applies even if you miss a basic attack, I think it should only take effect when actually damaged. Other than that, I think it can stay how it is.
Re: Hit vs Evade Bonus Fu - Lolzytripd - 12-30-2016
Maybe we could make blessed back to what it used to be...a damage enchant
Blessed replaces the first scaling of any weapon with faith.
Re: Hit vs Evade Bonus Fu - MegaBlues - 12-30-2016
For the most part, no one who builds Faith is going to be using their weapon to basic attack.
Blessed could use a revamp, definitely.
Re: Hit vs Evade Bonus Fu - Autumn - 12-30-2016
Nevermind blessed please, this is a thread about hit in general not blessed, lets not derail.
I'd agree with pretty much everything that Sly posted here however, even raising a thread myself about GUI, distortion and fortune wind a while which never really got touched upon. so +1 from me for sure.
Re: Hit vs Evade Bonus Fu - Rendar - 12-31-2016
I'm fine with all of it but the stuff down below.
Magnet Shell is god awful; and they'll never miss so long as they land ONE shot of this on you. (Even worse if they overcharged your ass)
Corbie's needed this nerf for awhile, and no one's gonna complain about it.
Zug and Prphylaxis are fine as is, considering they are both circumstantial bonuses (that also require 10 SP of 35 you have.)
Flanking needs it's hit. Needs to only really apply half GUI at the back, 25% GUI at sides.
Distortion is dumb. I'm unsure why it can't just be a semi-blur effect, like from DND. 10% automatic miss/damage avoidance chance.
PfA has always been a huge detriment to archers, who, surprisingly, were worse shots than gunners. It getting nerfed effectiveness would be fine, or just simply changing to be based off of a stat somehow.
Blind is ridiculously strong, forcing folks to take it if need be; and actually giving more prudence for basic attack builds to focus upon being Kaelens because of a free trait being freed up, and blind immunity. -50 with blindfighting making it -25 or -10 is fair.
Smoke Screen is weird and.. really... You can still shoot and attack through it. Which is ??? (or at least you used to be able to). I'd be fine with smoke screen making people untargateable on the other side, or giving a "BLIND" type negative (blind fighting reduces the -HIT).
Re: Hit vs Evade Bonus Fu - Neus - 01-04-2017
Galren; totally agreed, it's probably a bit too strong at the moment.
Bloodhunt; Possibly.
Blessed; Possibly, though it could also be tied to the religion system. I will concede that it's basically a Bloodhunt that gets going immediately, at the cost of not being stronger when they're low.
Focused Mind; Possibly.
Magnet Shell; Agreed, for a basic shell effect it's pretty powerful.
Aerial Attacker; I think that since Gain Air is only 1M now this is a reasonable request.
Bright Bishop; Agreed.
Zugzwang/Proph; I could see Zugzwang getting reduced to 3 per Rank, but I don't know if Proph is worth touching because it has a much more limited activation window.
Armor/Staff of Eyes; Blind could negate the bonus, not sure if I want to change them beyond that because they're both 10* items and suffer from limitations based on that.
Flanking; I could see it being changed to half effect if no other allies are in melee range, along with half effect if you're on striking the sides. So striking the sides while solo would only be 25% of the bonus. This one probably deserves a little more discussion because it's an opportunity cost (you have to use a skill to move, if nothing else).
Flatfoot; Less inclined to change this one, it's a main class skill and Bash usually requires a follow-up move action.
Felhook; Expensive, high Momentum cost, SS based. I could see it getting adjusted a little bit but it has some limitations already.
Fortune Wind; Secondary effect aside for the moment, I could see it having a lower Rank based bonus that perhaps gets a little stronger if you evade an attack.
Distortion; I could see this being changed to main class only and/or getting +30 at max rank.
Protection from Arrows; Since this is such a specific evade bonus I don't know if it needs much adjustment.
Green Scale Tunic; Probably not a bad idea.
Blind; Does this really have much in the way of reliable application?
Bright Shell; Possibly, for the same rason as Magnet Shell.
Smoke Screen; This is easy to get around, probably fine.
Yomidori; Possibly could be changed to only apply if you're damaged by it but thematically that might not make sense, because the idea is an attack that you've seen before is less effective against you. Although thematics aren't really important compared to balance.
Re: Hit vs Evade Bonus Fu - Soapy - 01-04-2017
I agree with essentially everything as listed in the OP, except:
Blessed is probably fine, Faith isn't exactly the best stat.
Distortion is already more expensive than Fortune Wind, for a smaller bonus. I think it should be reduced to 35-40 at max rank and otherwise unchanged.
Yomidori is fine as-is, though it does need to be changed not to apply when hit by start of turn status effects/damaging tiles.
Dev:
I think Zugzwang would do well to give Crit instead of Hit.
Your Flanking idea is perfect.
The issue with Flatfoot is primarily that it's percentage based.
Blind can very easily be applied via Altera, Star Stream, and Papilion butterflies. I use all three of these and think -50/-25 is plenty fair.
Re: Hit vs Evade Bonus Fu - MegaBlues - 01-04-2017
My two cents:
I think that Magnetize from Spellcaster classes should be left alone compared to that from other classes, considering that magic users don't see much of a benefit from Magnetize. Spellblades should have a reason to spell.
Blessed probably needs a buff, considering that most basic attackers have little to no use for Faith, compared to Sanctity and/or Luck.
Staff of Eyes has horrid scaling and may as well be a hand-slot passive for what it does. It needs to be buffed if its hit penalty is messed with, otherwise there won't be a reason to use it.
Distortion's duration needs to be extended if its bonus is decreased. It already only lasts 3 turns, 2 if you're slower than the opponent.
Green-Scale Tunic should probably be made Unarmored if its evade bonus is decreased, considering that you're using it against Autohit classes to trigger Evasion. As far as I'm aware, basic-attack classes often don't use enough FP to get the bonus from this going, until you start successfully dodging to sap their FP.
Everything else I either agree with or don't have an opinion to share.
Re: Hit vs Evade Bonus Fu - Autumn - 01-04-2017
"MegaBlues" Wrote:I think that Magnetize from Spellcaster classes should be left alone compared to that from other classes, considering that magic users don't see much of a benefit from Magnetize. Spellblades should have a reason to spell.
I think this is the opposite, a popular class to run on earth mages is Black Knight, which already has some pretty powerful hit buffs, magnetize is just icing on the cake that assures you won't be able to miss anyone by any chance, I play a BK Earth mage and have experienced this a bunch.
Re: Hit vs Evade Bonus Fu - Snake - 01-05-2017
Don't have any word against anything, and whatever I say here is just for the sake of discussion or agreement because the after-ideas were kind of good, but since Dev already had his input here and will probably be changing the balance around from what he 'harvested', time to wait.
For MegaBlues:
Staff of Eyes, it has Analyze Weakness, and can be paired with Rampaging for more cheese, so don't worry about that one, Blues.
As for Green-Scale Tunic, it 'should' be unarmored, I agree with that. If this can't be done, as we cried before, atleast make In-Fighter Gi the Unarmored one, sheesh. Dodges will need their equipment, and Green-Scale Tunic being Light Armor is helping it tank more than dodge.
For Soapy:
Crit on Zugzwang would be very appreciated, since Black Knights often lack any sources of Crit, while partially being a basic-hitting class.
Soldier is a class that doesn't have a 'lot' of hit steroids, but I do see how much crippling Flatfoot can be, so. Make Flatfoot only trigger if Bash moved the enemy, so Spiked Threads can stop it? I'm pretty sure not a lot of the dodge people will be willing to trade Waraji for Spiked just because one small thing like this can ruin their plans.
For Spo:
You're right. DEF (Earth) shouldn't result in more Hit. LUC or SKI (Ice or Lightning)? Yes. I don't think it would be a hassle to gib Magnetize a bit. Or cap it like Slydria said.