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+--- Thread: The Burn that Keeps Everything Awake (/showthread.php?tid=4006)
The Burn that Keeps Everything Awake - Soapy - 01-07-2017
Short and simple: Narcus' effect deals bonus damage equal to damage taken. You deal as much damage as your enemy deals to you, in addition to whatever damage you would normally do.
It doesn't take a genius to figure out that this effect makes it really hard to lose a damage race.
Narcus' effect LV should be reduced to half of the damage you take at best.
Re: The Burn that Keeps Everything Awake - Slydria - 01-07-2017
I agree, Narcus being 1:1 is just too strong. Especially when you mix it together with skills like Ether Invitation or Retaliate.
Re: The Burn that Keeps Everything Awake - Ranylyn - 01-07-2017
Honestly, I think I'd prefer to have it be a small amount (like 10%) unaffected by the resistance stat instead.
Even as it stands now, my Narcus user will often get smacked for like 200+ (Low defense, high HP, capitalizing on the returning damage) and have the returned damage being like... 30-40 and hurting my momentum, too (Resistance Stat + Fire Resistance.)
10% that bypasses res would still be pretty significant nerf while not making it utterly useless against high res opponents.
Re: The Burn that Keeps Everything Awake - Lolzytripd - 01-08-2017
could you actually post some numbers before just assuming its as bad as you think it is.
Narcus does its damage as fire damage, making it usually resisted to some degree.
Re: The Burn that Keeps Everything Awake - Exxy - 01-08-2017
1. It relies on taking hits, if you have high Defense this means you're unable to maximize potential; and if you're running low Defense/DR to make the most of this it's extremely high risk, high reward (I.E. one of the more viable glass cannon methods, which even then it can be walled by high DEF/high RES depending on which damage source you're more concerned with). If the person-on-fire doesn't queue the fact they're a Narcus user and you need to be cautious of your DPS, there's not much hope to win to begin with.
2. Fire is the most counter-played element with a good number of Resist methods, ways to turn it into HEALING, there are also ways to nullify Narcus' on-hit effect (see Steel Aura from BK's tree).
3. "You deal as much damage as your enemy deals to you," is misleading in the fact like previously mentioned: the damage from a Narcus is -still- affected by Defensive Values.
4. Like Lolzy said, numbers would help (and I don't mean to cherry-pick them with a high STR build VS. a squishy character). Attempted band-wagoning with no proof or comparison(s) made from other viable damage methods or mention(s) of existing counterplay leaves a sour taste in my mouth for this thread.
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I think for the most part it's fine; although I'm not a fan of Dragon Swords being compatible with Material Change Kits considering Low Accuracy and niche Fitting Form opportunities were a limitation/trade-off for these swords -until- one of the most recent changes (which made them much more viable). At the very least, we could see a change that removes changing their Material from Dragon Remains to be an available option (which this I believe would be a needed nerf for them - albeit slightly off-topic).
If I had to suggest a nerf for these, it would be to reduce the scaling from 1:1 for Damage Received:Effect Damage to 1:0.75 (I.E. you take 100 points of damage and gain LV 75 to the On-Hit Effect). Halving it would completely remove it from the current metaplay.
Re: The Burn that Keeps Everything Awake - Soapy - 01-08-2017
"Lolzytripd" Wrote:Narcus does its damage as fire damage, making it usually resisted to some degree.All damage is resisted to some degree.
"Exxy" Wrote:1. It relies on taking hits, if you have high Defense this means you're unable to maximize potential; and if you're running low Defense/DR to make the most of this it's extremely high risk, high reward (I.E. one of the more viable glass cannon methods, which even then it can be walled by high DEF/high RES depending on which damage source you're more concerned with). If the person-on-fire doesn't queue the fact they're a Narcus user and you need to be cautious of your DPS, there's not much hope to win to begin with.1. It relies only on taking hits. One can simply build pure HP and Hit, potentially with heals, to return nearly as much damage as they take for very little investment, and a fairly good chance of it actually being free if they happen to be running Duelist (riposte).
2. Fire is the most counter-played element with a good number of Resist methods, ways to turn it into HEALING, there are also ways to nullify Narcus' on-hit effect (see Steel Aura from BK's tree).
3. "You deal as much damage as your enemy deals to you," is misleading in the fact like previously mentioned: the damage from a Narcus is -still- affected by Defensive Values.
4. Like Lolzy said, numbers would help (and I don't mean to cherry-pick them with a high STR build VS. a squishy character). Attempted band-wagoning with no proof or comparison(s) made from other viable damage methods or mention(s) of existing counterplay leaves a sour taste in my mouth for this thread.
5. Low Accuracy and niche Fitting Form opportunities were a limitation/trade-off for these swords
2. This is no longer true whatsoever. Fire is far from the most resisted element. Every character lost 10% fire resist with the talents change, Mechanation resistances were nerfed and they are much less common than before, Hyattr went from the most common race to one of the rarest, Red Letters are arguably rare now since the drop table is astronomically larger than it was before, Nihilist still does its job, Razing Salamander does it even better, and a mutated Narcus will still get +50 to Hit and strip all buffs and fire resistance prior to the effect proc while dealing pierce damage with the main attack.
3. All damage is reduced by defensive values. Are people honestly forgetful enough that they need to be reminded in every thread? Compare the Retaliate items which return 50% of the damage you take from a certain element, or the Retaliate skill which returns even less, using the actual most resisted element, at a momentum cost.
4. Buzzwords leave a sour taste in my mouth. What math do you need to see, exactly, for it to properly get through to you that returning 100% of damage dealt is not fine?
5. See point 1, the last bit of point 2, the existence of Plisfa's Masochism, and dodge's overall viability.
Re: The Burn that Keeps Everything Awake - Snake - 01-08-2017
Too much of a hassle? Cap the maximum LV to 100, and the rest of the damage comes from 50% of your Fire ATK, so you don't go full SKI DEF VIT LUC and Retali-Narcus every round like an asshat, SO it works like:
On Take Damage: Store X damage (up to 100) + 50% of your Fire ATK, as Narcus LV.
On Hit: Deal unresistable Narcus LV >physical< fire damage.
The bad part on this weapon is that you don't even need STR to use it. *shrug*
Re: The Burn that Keeps Everything Awake - Autumn - 01-08-2017
Or just half works.
Re: The Burn that Keeps Everything Awake - Lolzytripd - 01-08-2017
Seriously post damage numbers I want to see how bad it is before I take a side on this. is it actually that op?
Also soapy -any- elemental damage is more resisted than slash/pierce/blunt.
the swords ENTIRE damage comes in the form of fire. Most people have 10+ fire resist
at 25 fire resist you lose 1m with it.
Re: The Burn that Keeps Everything Awake - Soapy - 01-08-2017
"Lolzytripd" Wrote:Most people have 10+ fire resistI can't take a request for numbers seriously if we're just pulling them out of our asses like that.