Hexers too OP, pls nerf. [Fellel's Fumble/Pilfa's Masochism needs cooldown]

Hexers too OP, pls nerf. [Fellel's Fumble/Pilfa's Masochism needs cooldown] - Printable Version

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+--- Thread: Hexers too OP, pls nerf. [Fellel's Fumble/Pilfa's Masochism needs cooldown] (/showthread.php?tid=4136)

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Hexers too OP, pls nerf. [Fellel's Fumble/Pilfa's Masochism needs cooldown] - Snake - 01-29-2017

[Image: 0c9602d9837c42bab1a48f633480ca9c.png]

A single Hexer, in the span of 1 round, managed to 'distribute' two Fellel's around like it's nothing, popped an extra one for the the Engineer, and probably could get one more for my character if it was alive.
That'd be equal to four 'people' under Fellel's Fumble in the span of two rounds. It's a little broken and unfair, The Engineer in this case, used over 100 FP to try and make a way around the curse, but it just resulted in the Hexer just slapping another Fellel's Fumble repeatedly for almost no FP cost.
And like that, the Engineer could throw the whole Cellsvich at the Hexer, it would end up everyone hexed with the curse because it has no cooldown.

Atleast I do think it needs a 3 round cooldown on each of them. We do have stuff that makes the duration/LV of those curses skyrocket anyway, so it just makes fair for those situations. (when Torment Noctis is in the case.)

You can see how absurd this is when you get this situation:

-A Hexer with Torment Noctis, five Black Spirits against a team of four people.
- Four people getting Fellel's Fumble LV 6, none of them uses Multi-Shot as they are simple Kensei or something basic and common like that.
- God help us all.

Re: Hexers too OP, pls nerf. [Fellel's Fumble/Pilfa's Masochism needs cooldown] - Joseph Jostar - 01-29-2017

If you're doing party battles, couldn't an autohitter just take on the fumbles for the team? The 1v4 situation seems a little unrealistic and if none of them have any autohits or way to stop the hexer hexing that's kind of their own problem.

That being said, Masochism seems fine but Fumble really is rather spammable for what it is. Rather than slapping cooldowns on everything, maybe increase the FP cost and make it a LV-based hit penalty instead? Something nasty enough so that it's a big deal for people who don't focus accuracy but not so bad that people who build nothing BUT accuracy start missing 10-CEL tanks. Still levelling-down on misses, of course.

Re: Hexers too OP, pls nerf. [Fellel's Fumble/Pilfa's Masochism needs cooldown] - Fern - 01-29-2017

I'm the Hexer in the screenshot and even I think it is too much. I believe it should be a bit longer than three rounds but that might be just me.

Fellel's Fumble causes literally no downsides to mages that only rely on spells, since you can just put it up and keep throwing attack spells around anyway. A cooldown is the easy way out for solving both Fellel and Plisfa, since the latter could easily bring up similar problems.

OR it could function like Body of Isesip where the duration is lowered by hitting/missing, instead of LV.

Re: Hexers too OP, pls nerf. [Fellel's Fumble/Pilfa's Masochism needs cooldown] - Kameron8 - 01-29-2017

I've posted on this before, so repeating the same long-winded thing I always do would be excessive. Suffice to say I very strongly agree to putting a cooldown on Fellel's Fumble and Plisfa's Masochism, because they are disgustingly momentum efficient.

Re: Hexers too OP, pls nerf. [Fellel's Fumble/Pilfa's Masochism needs cooldown] - Autumn - 01-29-2017

Please please pleaaaase, a 3 round cooldown at minimum would suffice for the god awful humble fumble, it'd save most hit builds from completely hitting the shitter against a tank hexer, and then also giving more meaningful benefit to spirits for Noctis and white spirits for Fumble and Plissaf's.

Re: Hexers too OP, pls nerf. [Fellel's Fumble/Pilfa's Masochism needs cooldown] - Lolzytripd - 01-29-2017

cool downs are for whimps, theres ways to play around fellels fumble, you can just use auto hits, EVERY SINGLE CLASS has reliable GOOD DAMAGE auto hits, it justs means you aren't allowed to play happy go lucky fun times and gain momentum with a fluer crit build.

In this specific instance the enemy had a torment nocits with 5 black spirits, this means no white spirits, this means their scaled weapon attack is poor or they've sacrificed a sub weapon slot.

Re: Hexers too OP, pls nerf. [Fellel's Fumble/Pilfa's Masochism needs cooldown] - Autumn - 01-29-2017

"Lolzytripd" Wrote:you can just use auto hits, EVERY SINGLE CLASS has reliable GOOD DAMAGE auto hits

No.

Re: Hexers too OP, pls nerf. [Fellel's Fumble/Pilfa's Masochism needs cooldown] - Kameron8 - 01-29-2017

"Lolzytripd" Wrote:EVERY SINGLE CLASS has reliable GOOD DAMAGE auto hits, it justs means you aren't allowed to play happy go lucky fun times and gain momentum with a fluer crit build.

Ah yes, the legendary Fray spam that all Void Assassins abuse for mad damage. And Gunners, with their incredible entangling trap burst. Arbalests have starbow, but real men duck the shoulder and spam heavy tackle.

These are not solutions to fight Fellels, this is cutting your damage output to numbers roughly around 10-20% of what you could be doing to avoid fighting the curse. They don't even reduce the duration, so the hexer doesn't have to upkeep it constantly after effectively neutering you. Sure, you can't castrate a boxer with Fellels -- quite the opposite -- but your statement is just incorrect. Not everyone can autohit past this, and very few people who use crit builds can use autohits instead to even inconvenience a tank hexer.

Re: Hexers too OP, pls nerf. [Fellel's Fumble/Pilfa's Masochism needs cooldown] - Joseph Jostar - 01-29-2017

A lot of fights in the current meta move way too quickly to just slap a cooldown on something and call it fixed. Unless you're in a duel of out-healing eachother, 3 rounds is at the very most two uses in a fight. Can we at least try to discuss alternatives instead of 'this completely shuts down my specific build let's make it unusable'? Hexers being massive tanks are a problem for every class, and rebalancing their curses around white spirit + paint brush + black spirits just makes it so that you HAVE to roll that to even use them.

Displaying massive def/res damage reduction stacking is less an argument against this and more against how high damage stacking can get so let's not get into that. (At least, not in this topic. It does still need addressing.)

Try tweaking around with things like max LV and reducing LV even when an autohit is used. Like I said before a harsh, LV-based hit penalty means you can still actually need some dodge to avoid damage and have a much more difficult time trying to shut down people running blessed/bloodhunt and who invested in hit. Which, again, if you're focused on one single method of attack only, having a specific build that shuts you down completely is not at all unusual for this game (as much as I dislike it).

TLDR: Fumble's ridiculous, but before you make it 1 or 2 uses per fight or boast about how high your DR is try considering alternatives to how it currently works. LV-based hit penalty and LV-down on autohits too is my two-cents.

Edit: Random alternatives for discussion: Higher FP costs, Curse LV is weaker the more people affected by it, Limit specific curses to [Arbitrary #] of enemies per hexer (Fumbling another person erases the Fumble on the first, for example), +1M for Fumble, LV-down per round, LV-down on autohits, LV-based hit penalty instead of outright missing, Autohits miss too for hexer only (Evasion/Snake Dancer disabled for Masochism for hexer only), no refreshing curse LV until it runs out, etc.

Re: Hexers too OP, pls nerf. [Fellel's Fumble/Pilfa's Masochism needs cooldown] - Kameron8 - 01-29-2017

I agree with you that cooldowns are becoming a catchall suggestion to change things, but this is one of those skills that makes sense to get one. It's a 3m investment that, as long as you're fighting someone who needs to attack into it, siphons anywhere from 3 momentum (when things like low level Fellels, dagger dance, and multihit guns are accounted for) to 18 momentum (the paintbrush white spirit fiasco).

On average, it costs people 6-9 momentum to get rid of Fellels. If Hexers are able to throw it down again the second it is removed, you're operating at such an enormous disadvantage it isn't even funny. Several alternatives were discussed in a different thread, like making the curse impose -100 to hit (evade for Plisfa's) instead of making attacks automatically miss.

Your idea is good, as it would replace the 0% damage being dealt from whiffing strikes with SOME damage from an autohit, but it comes with two issues:

-Hexers can reapply Fellels to themselves before the victim's wears off, meaning you are stuck perpetually autohitting and refreshing your curse. With how it functions now, once you slash through the levels, you get a single crit in before it slaps back onto you. Because autohits do damage, it triggers Fellels even when it's already on you.

-Several exceptional, multi-hit hard counter autohits come into play. The skill becomes even more feast or famine, because something like Thousand Stab invalidates it.

A few rework ideas could probably succeed, but something that provides enormous momentum efficiency is generally a valid candidate for cooldowns. You are completely correct that all sorts of 1m movement skills, high damage attacks, and healing spells are getting cooldowns, but when you really think about it, it seems to work fairly well.