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+--- Thread: Hit the gym (Mage battle weight issues) (/showthread.php?tid=4181)
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Hit the gym (Mage battle weight issues) - Autumn - 02-05-2017
Related to this bug: http://www.neus-projects.net/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4428
Yes, a balance thread on tome weight! Betcha' didn't see that one coming.
It seems that mages (who dont build STR and opt into other stats) tend to have problems with their battle weight due to tomes being super duper heavy (Seriously, these things can be 20+ weight, and thats not counting your armor and accessories that add up), could we see a base battle weight increase or a decrease to tomes overall?
Re: Hit the gym (Mage battle weight issues) - Soapy - 02-05-2017
Gunners have a similar problem.
Re: Hit the gym (Mage battle weight issues) - Snake - 02-05-2017
Some guns should stay heavy, while others not. Things like Shotguns and Launchers should keep their current weight so you can't just dual wield them, while Handguns shouldn't, since they're sort of 'mandatory' to be dual wielded for effective damage and usability.
Tomes? Yeah, holy fuck, how does a lot of paper weight more than a damn Axe?
Re: Hit the gym (Mage battle weight issues) - Chaos - 02-06-2017
Unless you're a certain kind of Detective, a Book is not the kind of weapon you want to swing at people with. It's weight is less of actual weight (though some cases might say otherwise) and more of how dumb it is to use a book like you would a club.
You could also see a Book's attacks as utilizing spells from the book itself, but that should take much more effort than swinging a sword. Hence, an unwieldy weight.
The Battle Weight part, I figure, could be:
1. Casting takes up your attention quite a bit, leaving your focus on your surroundings and enemies at a sub-par level
2. You like/have to stand still during casting, which doesn't do any favors towards trying to avoid a dagger in your gut
3. You have forsaken exercise so much, it takes more effort to avoid something, and you tend to rely on calculated casts rather than skilled tosses
....and so on and so forth.
OOCly, I see no reason why books shouldn't tell a mage to start lifting. It's part of why dumping STR is not a good idea. (Yes, Fire is tied to STR, but not all mages need Fire ATK to begin with) Considering that spellcasters never have to worry about durability to begin with, I don't think the book weights are unfair.
Re: Hit the gym (Mage battle weight issues) - MegaBlues - 02-06-2017
Having too high BW reduces your movement, as well as hit/evade. There's also the fact that magic comes with elemental damage, that mages often have fewer skill slots than their melee counterparts, magic having to deal with Elemental Attack while most melee skills have that bonus tied into Scaled Weapon Attack bonuses, etc.
I think that reducing the BW of tomes would be a good quality of life increase, especially with how accessories and the like now have their own weight.
Re: Hit the gym (Mage battle weight issues) - Chaos - 02-06-2017
"MegaBlues" Wrote:Having too high BW reduces your movement, as well as hit/evade. There's also the fact that magic comes with elemental damage, that mages often have fewer skill slots than their melee counterparts, magic having to deal with Elemental Attack while most melee skills have that bonus tied into Scaled Weapon Attack bonuses, etc.
1. More reason to not dump your STR
2. So does numerous melee skills, a number of weapons, anything that utilizes Elemental Augment... pure casters are not the only ones in the 'my skills have elemental damage' department
3. Mages have a Fluency subtalent that adds up to five skill slots just for having a Tome, compared to the melee counterparts that have to dump around 25 points between SKI/GUI (or, god forbid, 50 points in WIL) just for the same increase in skill slots
4. Except you ignore the fact that each and every spell that bothers with elemental scaling also calls upon 100% scaled ATK, which usually comes from weapons that tie into the focused element(s). If you're looking purely at what the scalings give, most melee skills lag behind compared to offensive spells
Compared to the 'melee counterparts' you're suggesting, mages have it pretty good. Good enough to not worry about the weights of Books.
Re: Hit the gym (Mage battle weight issues) - Autumn - 02-06-2017
"Chaos" Wrote:Unless you're a certain kind of Detective, a Book is not the kind of weapon you want to swing at people with. It's weight is less of actual weight (though some cases might say otherwise) and more of how dumb it is to use a book like you would a club.
You could also see a Book's attacks as utilizing spells from the book itself, but that should take much more effort than swinging a sword. Hence, an unwieldy weight.
The Battle Weight part, I figure, could be:
1. Casting takes up your attention quite a bit, leaving your focus on your surroundings and enemies at a sub-par level
2. You like/have to stand still during casting, which doesn't do any favors towards trying to avoid a dagger in your gut
3. You have forsaken exercise so much, it takes more effort to avoid something, and you tend to rely on calculated casts rather than skilled tosses
....and so on and so forth.
OOCly, I see no reason why books shouldn't tell a mage to start lifting. It's part of why dumping STR is not a good idea. (Yes, Fire is tied to STR, but not all mages need Fire ATK to begin with) Considering that spellcasters never have to worry about durability to begin with, I don't think the book weights are unfair.
Relating battle weight to an abstract like that really puts to question as to why STR is the only stat to contribute to B/W, though I see where you are coming from sorta, since you're hauling around a book and not exactly swinging it either most of the time right?
That being said, it would probably solve a lot of problems in the nearby future if base battle weight was just upped a little bit, from 5 base to 10 base because of the aforementioned bug about the weight issues on gloves/shields/shoes/etc.
Re: Hit the gym (Mage battle weight issues) - Ranylyn - 02-06-2017
By this thread's logic, soldiers and duelists should get passives to boost MP for free because they don't want will. Oh wait. That would be dumb.
If you don't want BW-related penalties, take some strength to offset it. If it's that big a concern, either consider lighter alternatives, or suck up the penalties.
As for raising the base BW... I'm on the fence. On the one hand, yeah, it makes perfect sense to not be overburdened by the tutorial gear immediately upon starting. On the flipside, raising the base BW could also make Str-less builds more plausible, which is kinda bad. Everyone needs a bit of everything (except arguably some corrupted,) which is why Aptitude is so useful.
Humans and mechs may get no racial sanctity bonuses, but having a bit for status resist and extra HP/FP isn't a bad idea. A soldier may not need an infinite MP pool to call upon, but having more MP is better than having less, so taking some will is a good idea. And, mages and gunners need some str to use their gear, to offset any weight-related penalties. It's all fair in the end.
Also, as someone who actually has some experience with axes, I feel the need to address this:
Quote:Tomes? Yeah, holy fuck, how does a lot of paper weight more than a damn Axe?
Axes are a lot lighter than you'd expect. A LOT lighter. Consider this:
Lift a 5 lb weight. Simple, right? Now tie it to the end of a stick and try to only use the stick to guide it. Suddenly, it's gone from easy to awkward. An axe's BW comes from it's cumbersome nature (it's all weighted at one end, as opposed to a sword which has a more manageable center of balance.) It's not actually heavy, but it's just awkward to use. Wood is generally pretty light, and axes have less metal than swords, so it's honestly not surprising if you think about it. Some two-handed axes weigh less than some one-handed swords, because of the small amount of metal. It's just poorly balanced.
I can say with absolute certainty that a legitimate "tome" (Not some 50 page paperback, but a legit hardcover book of arcane secrets with 1500-2000 pages) would actually weigh more than a good number of axes. Think back to high school or college or whatnot. A heavy backpack of books, most of which were likely only 300 pages, but there were several of them. You'd honestly much rather carry enough wood and metal to make an axe out of, instead; it's lighter. A fact reinforced by the fact that... well, if you ever help an avid reader move, the books are easily some of the heaviest boxes, minus things like the washer and dryer. Paper itself is light, but a lot of it condensed into one space adds up fast.
"But Rany-" No. I'm willing to bet I have more experience with axes than anyone here. Do NOT try to bullshit me on this.
"I was talking about the tome thing, dumbass! Why are you assuming the tome is that many pages!? Why CAN'T it be a 10 page school essay!? I mean, in Fullmetal Alchemist, people used circles drawn on cloth for their alchemy!"
Think about the very nature of magic. Not just SL2, but in general. Ripping primal forces forth from the deities that govern them (Or in non SL2 terms, the nether or warp or whatever have you.) A tome is more than just a source of power. It's a textbook, an encyclopedia, full of rituals and diagrams. In many settings, mages study their tomes nightly, to further their craft. All of this is in fact reinforced by the "Spellbook" talent in SL2, which grants you extra skill slots with a tome equipped.
Re: Hit the gym (Mage battle weight issues) - Soapy - 02-06-2017
lol
Re: Hit the gym (Mage battle weight issues) - Autumn - 02-06-2017
It's mostly just to accomodate for the people who have already dumped enough STR for their battle weight but are about to get screwed by the bug report I just put up :|
This isn't a thread about how people aren't putting points into STR because they do, it's just they put in enough STR for battle weight before knowing that accessories/gloves/shoes were bugged, which is why a base battle weight increase would please more people than just telling them to fruit for an additional 5 points of STR. (and why base battle weight increase was my first suggestion too)