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+--- Thread: Leveling out VIT (/showthread.php?tid=4561)
Leveling out VIT - Chaos - 05-18-2017
Ever since SL2 began, VIT is the main provider for a character's HP. In the old, RNG/growth-driven stat system, it accounted for 71% of a character's base HP and 100% of stat-based HP, each point granting 5 HP, and good growths for VIT were placed into the more physical classes, which typically boosted the more physical-oriented stats alongside.
Fast forward to the Great Reckoning and its allotted stat system. VIT accounts for 54% of a character's base HP and 77% of a character's stat-based HP, each point granting 10 HP at default, and beyond the influence of the soft cap, anyone can fill up VIT to whatever number they desire.
I believe there is a problem here. If you take a look at and the past and present samples, you'll notice a major difference: Whereas the old system made VIT more likely for certain setups compared to others, the new system leaves VIT completely open to all builds. Due to this, all builds are roughly equal when it comes to potential HP, allowing the squishy back-row wizard to take the same amount of punishment that a heavily-armored bodyguard can. Additionally, due to the nature of the allotted stat system, it places the vast majority of base HP into a single stat, demanding a minor percentage of the 210-point stat pool in exchange for a large amount of HP.
In light of all of this, I've come to believe that, while having 13 HP (per point) split among various stats is not a bad idea, putting 10 of that 13 into VIT makes it too easy for just about every single build to achieve solid durability. This is why I want to suggest the following change:
VIT will only give 7 HP per point.
STR will now give 3 HP per point.
And to answer some obvious concerns:
Why are you throwing some of VIT's +HP to a blatantly offensive stat? STR is rather binary: Either you use a STR-scaling weapon and pump it up, or you don't and you can (almost) safely ignore it. Due to various bonuses to Inventory Weight and Battle Weight, STR's secondary effects have had minimal impact to anyone who doesn't already have STR determining their damage in the first place. STR is also a very physical stat: A vast majority of melee weapons require STR in various amounts, and by default, most of those weapons have 'melee range'. (The ones that start off with a greater range usually have minor STR scaling)
Not to mention that STR is the only stat that doesn't already:
1. Confer powerful, offense-oriented secondary effects (I.e. increase Critical, grant Elemental ATK across the board)
2. Grant a defensive effect, such as damage reduction or status resistance
You are literally ruining builds with this suggestion. Going by an Average~Above Average standard for VIT allotment, you'd see roughly 90~100-ish HP lost for builds that don't bother with putting any points (directly) into STR. I highly doubt that builds are going to be ruined by this suggestion. At most, it'll make a few nerfs for high-damage skills/setups more necessary, and tank mages may have to include another stat in their setup to optimize HP.
In addition, it becomes possible for a few potential builds to rise up, since the nerf to VIT opens up the possibility of sacrificing the stat without completely ruining a character's HP. (though it certainly won't last longer than a build that didn't dump VIT)
(Number crunching involving the idea of dumping VIT with this change in mind
You're forgetting about the other defensive stats, scrub. While DEF/RES both pitch in damage reduction, each of them only covers one type of damage. (DEF = Physical, RES = Magical) VIT goes up against any and all damage. Yes, FAI/LUC could potentially stop big criticals, but no matter how much DEF or RES you have, they are still damage control, so your HP is what ultimately determines how many big hits you will survive. Not to mention that higher HP means more gained from any healing effects that base themselves off a percent of your maximum HP.
Let's also not forget that while there are various ways to get around DEF and/or RES, your only options for dealing with someone that sports some 1.0~1.2k Maximum HP is inflicting Cursed Wounds from either a specific weapon or a specific tree of skills in a certain class. This and the logic above is why HP bloating is an effective option, and a part of why I'm making this suggestion in the first place.
Re: Leveling out VIT - Joseph Jostar - 05-18-2017
obligatory "THUMBS DOWN IF WE DO THIS DEV WOULD HAVE TO PASS OUT FREE STAT FRUITS TO EVERYONE :/"
while i'm definitely with this sort of idea, it doesn't seem to change the effectiveness of vit stacking all too much. assuming a scaled 50 in vit means it'll only shave a modest ~150 hp off of the people who stack vit, right? and that's ignoring the STR they'll have basically for free, even someone with a paltry 10 str from things like racial base and APT is getting 30 of that hp back ... like don't get me wrong it's great that it would make using STR a more viable thing, but a wizard with 980 hp isn't gonna be much less dangerous than one with 1100.
Re: Leveling out VIT - Ranylyn - 05-18-2017
I'd personally just rather see HP take a massive hit across the board instead of making the same numbers possible if stats are allocated correctly.
Flat out reduce Vit to 5 per instead of 10 per. Done. Suddenly people and monsters alike with 1000+ HP have like 600. Battles don't take as long all around, grinding goes faster, and more varied builds become more viable since you can't just get out-attritioned by ubertanks.
"But Ran, my tanks!"
Oh, and I don't have tanks? Please. Modern HP numbers are bullshit and you know it.
Re: Leveling out VIT - Selfish Gene - 05-18-2017
I definitely appreciate the amount of thought and clear evident that went into this, it's nice to see well-written and detailed suggestions and balance suggestions that aren't a simple "I think this is OP plz nerf". For that, thank you for sharing you two cents on the matter Chaos, I'm sure most of the player base genuinely appreciates this.
With this said, I'm a tad bit conflicted about this suggestion, much like Joseph. On one hand, I do agree with them in that people will still be harvesting the rewards of base strength and odd bonuses they receive from that, along with receiving a fair chunk of health from vitality dumping all the same. Do I agree that giving +10 HP per stat point seems to be a whole lot? Of course, I do, when it adds up to a total of over 1000 by investing approximately 50 points into vitality (with the assistance of class skills like Hexer's Endurance and Soldier's Fortitude). Does that seem daunting and a tad bit ridiculous at first? Of course, it does. Many things can be exploited as a direct result from this, including high HP tanks taking this opportunity to spam fully powered Ether Invitations when they haven't even reached 50% health yet.
However, do realize that the people who do decide to invest those points into vitality are doing so willingly in hopes of being a bit tankier. This is in exchange for some raw power or other beneficial stats they could be harvesting. For example, I have a relatively low vitality destiny curate with 30 vitality, but a whopping 550FP who can also deal a solid 150-200 damage per spell without bonuses like hunted. At the end of the day, it's all personal preference for the players and what they like to run in their build.
Now, for the biggest reason why I dislike the idea of splitting this so solidly with strength. I understand where you're coming from with the entire "strength is a relatively underwhelming stat and someone who's muscular and a soldier who has a lot of it should be a fair bit tougher", I assure you that it makes total sense and I can see where you're coming from. I would be more inclined to this happening if it didn't have an elemental scaling, much like WIL. But it does, fire.
Fire is undoubtedly one of the most commonly used elements in the game right now. Whether it be to burn someone to a crisp with Exgalfa, take advantage of the ludicrous amount of damage cinder/sear tiles can do, playing pinball with explosion blowbacks and said tiles, fire enchanted skills, or what have you. Fire mages aren't meant to be known as tanky and durable because, as your argument about backline mages being as tanky as their melee partners, it would only increase for these pyromancers. The stat system would be rewarding said fire mages for no better reason than "Oh it just so happens that the stat that receives this new HP bonus also scales fire damage". Fire is run with all sorts of build, whether it be doom wall or suicide bomber. This suggestion would only make them even more of a pain to deal with and honestly wouldn't make much sense as to why they are suddenly tankier. I understand that we use the term "muscle wizard" as a joke, but that isn't really what's happening. I don't expect every pyromancer to wake up with an incredibly well-toned body after a fix like this to justify why they are suddenly far more tanky than they should be.
If we were to decrease the amount of health that vitality has to offer, I would instead rather invest those points in another stat or abolish the few points altogether. For example, if vitality offered 7 or 8 health per point and defense/resistance each gave 1 health per point, this would make more sense since you're rewarding people for building tanky. The bonus isn't ludicrous and it would only be an extra health per point invested into defense and resistance. This way, if a player were to invest 50 scaled vit with only 15 scaled def and res, they would only receive (50 * 8) + (30 * 1) = 430 HP out of this compared to today where they would receive (50 * 10) = 500 HP. A significant 70 point deduction is fairly hefty and rewards tanks for being tanky.
Needless to say, I agree that vitality is a tad bit generous with the amount of health it provides, but I don't think that splitting the 10HP into a 7:3 ratio with HP is the way to go about it either.
Edit: I partially agree with Ranylyn in outright reducing the HP it provides as well. I remember in pre-reckoning SL2 when having 500HP was an extremely healthy amount and that's all you needed. The only issue I can foresee with this is that most skill scalings would have to take a drastic hit as well. As it stands, there are far too many skills that could outright one-shot anyone if the vitality HP was outright halved. Pre-reckoning it wasn't as bad since Ether Invitation's damage was mediocre, scalings worked differently than they do now, it was basically up to RNG in regards to how much damage you would end up dealing, weapon scalings weren't a thing. Nowadays? There are builds that can easily deal 1000 in a turn and having these tanks randomly implode because of it is a tall order.
Re: Leveling out VIT - Sawrock - 05-18-2017
I personally agree 100% with the original post. It makes strength useful, and gives vit a much needed small nerf.
Re: Leveling out VIT - Chaos - 05-18-2017
"Joseph Jostar" Wrote:obligatory "THUMBS DOWN IF WE DO THIS DEV WOULD HAVE TO PASS OUT FREE STAT FRUITS TO EVERYONE :/"
while i'm definitely with this sort of idea, it doesn't seem to change the effectiveness of vit stacking all too much. assuming a scaled 50 in vit means it'll only shave a modest ~150 hp off of the people who stack vit, right? and that's ignoring the STR they'll have basically for free, even someone with a paltry 10 str from things like racial base and APT is getting 30 of that hp back ... like don't get me wrong it's great that it would make using STR a more viable thing, but a wizard with 980 hp isn't gonna be much less dangerous than one with 1100.
"Ranylyn" Wrote:I'd personally just rather see HP take a massive hit across the board instead of making the same numbers possible if stats are allocated correctly.
Flat out reduce Vit to 5 per instead of 10 per. Done. Suddenly people and monsters alike with 1000+ HP have like 600. Battles don't take as long all around, grinding goes faster, and more varied builds become more viable since you can't just get out-attritioned by ubertanks.
"But Ran, my tanks!"
Oh, and I don't have tanks? Please. Modern HP numbers are bullshit and you know it.
This thread is about shifting around VIT's +HP to lessen the massive impact that VIT holds with HP, not sending the HP ceiling to the ground. The hit to HP here isn't that big because it's not supposed to flip the entire meta over, it's supposed to take small steps towards adjusting how easily people can stack up HP.
As for Selfish Gene, I cannot address your response in full right now, but I can say this:
1. It only takes about 30-40 stat points to get a quality amount of HP from VIT. In the grand scheme of things, that is only a minor allocation. You are still completely capable of jacking up some other stats to the moon while softcapping VIT.
2. Fire is also one of the more commonly resisted elements, if not one of the few elements that has an absorb effect available. Compare this to VIT, which powers up Water, one of the least resisted elements (And is typically home to Silencing effects, and one that doubles as HP recovery) You also forget that WIL buffs up each and every Elemental ATK by 25% of Scaled WIL. STR can't come anywhere close to that effect.
3. Besides DEF/RES already granting damage reduction and therefore being quite necessary on their own, making them give 1 HP each while VIT gives 8 HP will produce practically no difference in the HP values we are currently seeing. The point is shift a few +HPs from VIT onto something that isn't exactly there for every single build, without making that stat incredibly ridiculous as it stood. STR is the only stat that fits both criteria.
Re: Leveling out VIT - Selfish Gene - 05-18-2017
"Chaos" Wrote:1. It only takes about 30-40 stat points to get a quality amount of HP from VIT. In the grand scheme of things, that is only a minor allocation. You are still completely capable of jacking up some other stats to the moon while softcapping VIT.
I realize that fully, I assure you. It's essentially an established norm that a healthy amount of vitality for any build is 40. It isn't uncommon to bring health to approximately 700-800 from this alone. I understand where you're coming from, hence why I said I'm personally fine with reducing the amount of HP vitality has to offer altogether. My primary issue with this entire post isn't that vitality shouldn't be nerfed, it's that I personally don't believe it should be invested into strength.
"Chaos" Wrote:2. Fire is also one of the more commonly resisted elements, if not one of the few elements that has an absorb effect available. Compare this to VIT, which powers up Water, one of the least resisted elements (And is typically home to Silencing effects, and one that doubles as HP recovery) You also forget that WIL buffs up each and every Elemental ATK by 25% of Scaled WIL. STR can't come anywhere close to that effect.
It is one of the more commonly resisted elements, yes. It is one of the few elements that can be absorbed, yes. However, many pyromancers make it a point to wear Nihilists to nullify the latter and even then, it's implying that the opponent has their hands on a Red Letter to begin with. As for it being a commonly resisted element, I don't believe that's worth shrugging off either. Spells do an absurd amount of damage and having enough fire resistance to proc the "Resist" text doesn't mean it won't hurt. The prime culprit of this being Explosion + Cinder/Sear tiles. Yes I know, if you wear Spiked Treads then this is a no-brainer, but not everyone wears them. Explosion is a timed spell that activates at the beginning of the next turn, thus meaning that the "Resist" text happens before the Pyromancer's turn and thus don't suffer the 1 momentum penalty. Not only this, but the same goes with the knockback into Cinder/Sear tiles. A very common strategy is to lay out a wide terrain of these tiles and throw out an Explosion to blow them through it. If I'm honest, with my 55 resistance tank (Who also resists fire with 38% AND has flamewalk on her boots), she was still taking 20 damage per cinder tile and upwards of 100 damage from the Explosion. In that turn alone she took nearly 200 damage before the turn even began. Thus, rewarding this combination by throwing HP into strength would only be fueling this already inextinguishable flame. Not to mention I took just under 500 damage from Exgalfa (55 resistance/38% fire resistance included).
As for Vitality powering up water, I'm well aware of this. It's just a shame that there are so few water spells in the game altogether. I count four that are directly at anyone's disposition (Rebia, Rebia Focused Beam, Kel, Gentle Torrent). I'm not adding the Youkai ones for the time being or Red Sea since those are a little out of the way to get and whatnot. The trend with those four is that they are all curate spells anyway and have no mage enchant to boost water attack. Nerhaven offers a boost of 11 fire atk alone whereas there are none of those for water. I think considering the low quantity of water spells and no genuine boost to water attack that it should get a free pass in regards to that.
As for the WIL buff? No, I didn't "forget" that. Will is a stat that universally struggles anyhow and that's exactly what Will should be doing. I don't see how mentioning that for every 4 points in WIL it increases all elemental attacks by 1 honestly plays a role in this discussion. Four points in strength would offer 4 fire atk, 4 encumberance, 4 battle weight, strength weapon scaling, as well as 12 HP if we went with your suggestion. That's a pretty hefty chunk of stats in my opinion.
"Chaos" Wrote:3. Besides DEF/RES already granting damage reduction and therefore being quite necessary on their own, making them give 1 HP each while VIT gives 8 HP will produce practically no difference in the HP values we are currently seeing. The point is shift a few +HPs from VIT onto something that isn't exactly there for every single build, without making that stat incredibly ridiculous as it stood. STR is the only stat that fits both criteria.
I find that giving defense and resistance 1 HP wouldn't be the end of the world. If someone were to bring their defense and resistance at scaled 50, they would only be receiving 100HP from that alone. And even then, I still prefer nerfing vitality as a whole rather than passing it over to another stat. I agree that strength needs a buff for the most part, I just genuinely think slapping +3HP on it and calling it a day is a right thing for it. I feel that strength provides far more than people give it credit for. Seeing as it's one of the leading contributors in weapon scaling, I would say that the fact that investing as many points as you do into strength to be able to wield a weapon effectively is more than enough justification to get it. The fire attack, encumberance, and battle weight bonus are just some toppings on the cake.
Edit: I know many people may disagree with this statement as well, but I genuinely think strength is in a pretty solid spot right now. It may not give benefits like stats such as Defense, Vitality, Skill, Luck, and others do, but the majority of weapons in the game have a pretty high strength scaling. Investing those points into strength barely puts you at a disadvantage, considering the neat abilities and skills some of those weapons like you use. Fellgrant Drinker? 75% Str and 25% Vit but lets you restore 24% of the damage you deal back to you. That's great and is definitely worth building strength for. I can't say I've ever seen someone lose a spar just because they built strength to use a strength weapon whereas the other person was running a Filcherbird Arbalest build, I think it's just overexaggerated and I honestly think Strength is in a solid spot and is relatively balanced. Maybe offer a small tweak or bonus, but +3HP seems a bit much.
Re: Leveling out VIT - Lolzytripd - 05-18-2017
Its not really passing it over, people will do anything to find a build where they can avoid str.
It would definitively affect high hp dagger builds.
Re: Leveling out VIT - GSM - 05-18-2017
While I do agree that VIT does need a serious nerf and needs to be reduced, I don't see all that reason for STR to be the new home stat for wannabe tanks. I like Selfish Gene's suggestion of keeping the VIT cut down somewhat and having DEF/RES give an additional HP point each, as a reward for building to be a tank- and I do rather like the idea Ranylyn gave to just clip VIT's HP rewards.
For an example of why I think this would be great and useful is because I run a Glykin gimmick build of Bonder/Spellthief, and VIT/SAN/WIL are my main stats on him. I stole a few water spells and a healing spell, and used the water fairy Youkai. I didn't expect him to be very powerful, since it was a gimmick- but he ended up being a monstrous 900 HP 500 FP water mage that demolished anything he fired a successful Red Sea at. However, he doesn't have a lot of DEF/RES, and thusly, whoever manages to get enough Momentum and charge enough on their weapons and/or spells could end him in just a few turns.
Besides, I always saw VIT in a RP-wise way as you would Constitution in Dungeons and Dragons- it's your hardiness and well-being. DEF was always how sturdy or readily available they would be to defend against blows, and RES was how readily available they could counter or block a spell's damage. STR was always just how physically imposing and powerful they are. It'd make more sense to sink more HP bonuses into DEF/RES, as they show a natural aptitude of defensive strategies. STR shouldn't be the main reason anyone should become a tank.
Besides, Fire mages and Setting Sun-worshipping Monks would take INSANE advantage of this buff to STR. Fire mages get all that much more incentive to blast anything in their way with a fiery explosion (like they currently have), and beyond Battle Weight/carrying capacity, they would also gain HP as a bonus. I think Setting Sun Monks are self-explanatory.
TL;DR: I overall like the idea, but I'd like to see the additional HP from VIT either cut out or put partially into DEF/RES.
Re: Leveling out VIT - Rendar - 05-18-2017
So long as things that give +STR in combat (like Sharpen, etc) don't raise your max HP, I'm fine. ((Sanguine Crest likely still should, since it affects BW outside of combat, too.))