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+--- Thread: Double Turning - Initiative stat (/showthread.php?tid=4659)
Double Turning - Initiative stat - Autumn - 06-16-2017
Double Turning is a term thrown around that basically just refers to suddenly gaining more CEL than your opponent so that you suddenly go ahead of them in turn order, and getting double turned kind of sucks.
Getting double turned usually means that your opponent is now in the prime position to unleash a full combo, maybe even two on you all at once, which is all it takes to kill you sometimes, or at least inflict serious damage, and when you suddenly get outsped due to Rising game, and then you suddenly receive a Hit Hit Ether Invitation to the back and die, you almost feel a bit cheated when it happens, because there was little reaction time.
What I propose is a stat that makes this sort of thing a bit more fair to everyone, and possibly opens more design space, such as unique racials, easier to implement items and traits.
An out of battle stat called Initiative that is tied directly to your CEL, your CEL = Initiative, not only this but certain talents and items grant initiative as well, to sum it up:
-CEL No longer counts for turn order, but instead turn order is decided at the start of the match/round according to all combatant's 'initiative stats.
-Initiative will not increase in battle, in battle CEL modifiers will not effect it, however out of battle CEL Modifiers will effect Initiative.
-Certain talents such as 'first move' from Preparation, and certain items such as Quickdraw will increase the out of battle Initiative stat, instead of increasing your 'celerity' in terms of turn order only
I hope this suggestion/balance change will be considered, as I feel it will make some life or death situations in combat feel less unfair under certain circumstances.
Re: Double Turning - Initiative stat - Fern - 06-17-2017
I don't mind this change, it could become interesting really. It'd probably make a certain shoes item called the 'Boots of Initiative' to become more useful if it was considered, too.
"But this will take the fun and adrenaline of double turning someone in a battle!"
I'm not sure if getting brutalized due to a minor CEL boost in the midst of a fight is a fun thing for anyone, specially with how easy it is to pull off sometimes (and inevitable in a few cases).
Re: Double Turning - Initiative stat - Snake - 06-17-2017
Fern said everything. I wouldn't mind to give this indirect 'buff' to Stat Distribution's CEL.
It will make the points you've spent on the stat more worth, because you're not simply buffing yourself to godhood in the middle of a fight to trip-kick your enemy's CEL by 1 or 2 points.
Re: Double Turning - Initiative stat - Nanovelich - 06-17-2017
I agree with this change. The double turning at the start of a battle due to having First Move and shit CEL while my opponent apparently skipped out on First Move is why I dropped the talent and movement boost along with it, and that's a movement boost I did not want to give up.
With an exceptionally tanky character, your turn after being double turned is usually dedicated to recovery, and if your character isn't a tank, getting double turned is almost always a game changer out of your favor, if not the conclusion.
+1
Re: Double Turning - Initiative stat - Lonestar - 06-17-2017
I agree with this change. Being double turned is a well-placed kick in the balls and this could change alot of things. +1
Re: Double Turning - Initiative stat - Neus - 06-17-2017
Could always go the SL1 route and make turns shift after actions, although I don't know how much work that would be and it wouldn't work as well here since some actions rely on being able to be followed up (but maybe it could not apply until you've used a certain amount of Momentum, like 3 or more total).
Re: Double Turning - Initiative stat - Nanovelich - 06-17-2017
Yeah, I don't know about that one, Dev. With 3 or 4, there's so many combinations that would be utterly crippled by someone being able to just use Movement, any other move that displaces the user or target, or anything that might add/remove status effects.
As much as I think it would be interesting, I get the feeling it would just not work at all.
Although, I would love to see it experimentally as a modifier akin to Stylish, both on dungeons and as an option for PvP. Would be perfect for testing. To keep implementation simple, it could replace Stylish in the PvP menus for the time, since I'm fairly certain no one ever uses it.
Edit: I said 'even 3' like an idiot. What I meant was 'with 3 or 4', this being either immediately using your first action or utilizing some 1m action just before it, such as Charge. At 5 and up, it's pretty pointless aside from crippling builds that rely on critical momentum.
God, I can't believe I accidentally hit Quote twice while trying to edit this...
Re: Double Turning - Initiative stat - Autumn - 06-17-2017
I'd love to see it experimented with, but as Nano and yourself brought up, it'd cause pain for follow up actions such as Menov's Fang, or Reaver and Verglas combos, even invocations perhaps.
Re: Double Turning - Initiative stat - Nanovelich - 06-17-2017
Priest's Needles for the healing effect. DH's Marauder combo and Desperado combos; their entire Reaver stance really. Being able to actually get Cutthroat in just about ever (barring cheap 1m/2m methods of movement.) Kensei's combos. Literally any utilization of Charging Strike.
This is just what I can think of off the top of my head for what would be crippled by a 3-4m cut off only having really delve into a few builds, in addition to what Spoops already said. I'm sure that list could be expanded greatly by people who have played more classes.
It would require a complete overhaul in a lot of skills' setup conditions to be the standard, for certain.
Re: Double Turning - Initiative stat - Rendar - 06-17-2017
Doubleturning has, and always will be, 'bad' for the game.
A slow Tactician with a quick teammate has always been able to do this, since if they skip turn, they will go at the end of initiative, even if other people counter-skip to try and stop it (allowing for them to doubleturn next round).
Getting doubleturned fucking sucks for everyone involved, because, in most cases, the person who DID the double turning will generally get double-turned once the cel buff runs out (or the opponent cel buffs, etc.)