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+--- Thread: The lightning hits for a fatal blow! (/showthread.php?tid=5000)
Re: The lightning hits for a fatal blow! - Chaos - 11-21-2017
"Neus" Wrote:No one thinks the issue here might be Spellthief?Spellthief is a major issue when it comes to piling on powerful support spells, thanks to the ability to grab Malmelo/Death Knighting/(Elemental Enchant spell here) and whatever other support spells the user desires in one easy, evade-friendly package.
While limiting Spellthieves on this front (see: either require Destiny for these kinds of spells, or prevent support spells from being used entirely) would help immensely, we should also recognize that the damage was possible due to the multiplicative nature of percentage damage boosts, and that if Spellthief was swapped out for Hexer, Joker wouldn't have lost the all-important boosts from Redgull and Death Knighting.
In other words: Spellthief is part of the problem, but not the decisive factor.
Re: The lightning hits for a fatal blow! - Shujin - 11-21-2017
Yop in this case, they wouldn´t even have lost any of the damage buffs aside from splash.
So I agree with most of what the others say, Hexer is just as bad with how powerful it can make certain setups, even back then when Sherenzan wasn´t nerfed the insane damage back then had Hexer in it´s set up aswell, mainly Fallcall from DK and I think I even stacked the curse on top of it which made fear uncurable and increasing damage by another 10%? But once again the huge damage only was this massive because of the way things are calculated currently, so I assume most of future problems are getting automatically combated with that change aswell, while at the same time tending to some of the current ones. Most likely not all, but certainly alot of them.
About spellthieves only stealing Offensive skills? I honestly don´t really like that thought, I love Spellthief for being versatile and making "Custom elemental mages". I´d say we just be a bit mindful in future with skills that have powerful side effects similiar on how Dev handled Ranger spells and combat a few of the current problem childs. It´s actually not THAT many skills that are so terrible when stolen. It´s mostly just DK, Splash and Malmelo (or the combination of those)cause each of them have a bunch of extra effects attached to them or are generally too strong. Aka attaching it to an unstealable class only Skill/Passive for the "Wow" effect is probably a good way to keep ST good at what it does without making it absolutely overbearing.
like we could waeken Malmelo a bit when you do not have Priest equipped. Half fallcall damage, it´s simply stupid how high poison damage gets just for stacking menovs fang on someone and being a DK, 25% is still a very strong multi for something as easily inflicted like fear. And about splash...I think reducing it´s damage, given that it has already alot of utility is one step to go- but I disgress.
The problems are most certainly Multistacking over Spellthief.
Re: The lightning hits for a fatal blow! - Snake - 11-21-2017
I mean, added to what Chaos said, yes. I agree with him.
Spellthief is a reason that the character's really OP, but at the same time, Lightning critical hits are still a little too much. They could have their GUI investment part halved. (Only GUI/2 is the Critical Damage% Lightning impact benefits from, instead of GUI.) In fewer words, what Spoops is trying to go for.
If we could gib both Spellthief and Lighting criticals, there wouldn't be any major exploits left, aside the damage multiplier stacking not being an addition.
Re: The lightning hits for a fatal blow! - Fern - 11-21-2017
I strongly disagree with locking Spellthief to only grabbing offensive spells, as that would make the class a lot less varied than it currently is- and people tend to call it their favorite class simply because it holds so many possibilities, broken or not.
The only problems I've ever seen in Spellthief are Malmelo, Death Knighting and Sanctuary, a.k.a the three 'meta spells' that anyone trying to be super efficient steals.
I'd say the best way of 'nerfing' Spellthief is by attacking those three, though mainly the first and second, since those are the only real problems with it. If those are left untouched, then any other modification won't really change much.
Making damage multistacking get counted together and lowering the lightning critical damage in general still seems like the best solution to me, when it comes to the main topic.
And, do note that even if enchants suddenly became something you can't steal, you can just equip the elemental badges.
Re: The lightning hits for a fatal blow! - Autumn - 11-21-2017
I don't think spellthief should only be grabbing offensive spells, if you were to nerf spellthief in any way it could very well be just in the ways they get abused the most heavily.
-Make Malmelo a FAI/2% Heal (Capped at rank*5) that way its not just a statless healing spell to your entire team.
-Negotiate shouldn't be able to be used while silenced (makes sense anyways)
-Death Knighting should be 5 all stats similar to shine knighting, its been strong for a long time, most people use this to statball and get 50% damage boosts against any non shaitan.
You may be right at it being partial to spellthief, as spellthief is the only class that allows you to get death knighting, splash, malmelo and quetal all in the same kit, buuuut swift crystal rose will still do an absolute monsterous amount of damage anyways, so I think either crystal rose needs to be the same scaling as cyclone spear, or lightning criticals need to go down a bit still.
Re: The lightning hits for a fatal blow! - Shujin - 11-22-2017
Halving the stats of Deathknighting is not fixing their abuseable factor at all. People use it for fallcall, the plus 10 stats are just like a bonus. So by only reducing the stats by 5 you won´t really fix the problem.
Re: The lightning hits for a fatal blow! - Chaos - 11-22-2017
"Fern" Wrote:I strongly disagree with locking Spellthief to only grabbing offensive spells, as that would make the class a lot less varied than it currently is- and people tend to call it their favorite class simply because it holds so many possibilities, broken or not.Or, instead of attacking spells just because Spellthieves constantly steal them, make it where Spellthieves unable to use them at the very least. Nerfing these spells directly does nothing but hurt the classes they come from, while Spellthief is completely unaffected and can just choose other spells to cover the bases. The only issue here is all of these powerful spells being available in one class, and that's what we need to hit.
The only problems I've ever seen in Spellthief are Malmelo, Death Knighting and Sanctuary, a.k.a the three 'meta spells' that anyone trying to be super efficient steals.
I'd say the best way of 'nerfing' Spellthief is by attacking those three, though mainly the first and second, since those are the only real problems with it. If those are left untouched, then any other modification won't really change much.
Making damage multistacking get counted together and lowering the lightning critical damage in general still seems like the best solution to me, when it comes to the main topic.
And, do note that even if enchants suddenly became something you can't steal, you can just equip the elemental badges.
If the spells themselves need nerfs, that should be in their own territory, not Spellthief's.
Re: The lightning hits for a fatal blow! - Shujin - 11-22-2017
But chaos, Those skills are also problems on their own class, or at the very least DK is. Having Malmelo being attached to Faith isn´t going to nerf it, a Priest will usually have this amount anyway it´s just a silly skill nowadys cause it´s not attached to any stats. So I´d like Spos idea to happen either way.
What highly abuseable non offensive skill is there, that makes this class broken aside from the adressed problem children?
The elemental enchantments? Nah, they are good but by no means overpowered.
Fortune Wind for another Evade buff? well certainly good but given that this is ST anyway, they have way to much evade even without it.
So yea, I fear aswell that just cool and unique ideas are going to be taken from ST that never have been a problem to begin with. And I´d say if the changes people have adressed here are coming, it won´t be much of a problem anymore.
besides them only being able to steal offensive spells is probably just swapping some of the meta skills to others, black bubble, wrtched oil etc. are all still used by ST just for the status they can cause with it.
Re: The lightning hits for a fatal blow! - Snake - 11-22-2017
If Spellthieves are supposed to be 'I can do everything without consequences' class, then Boxer should do insane damage for high FP cost again. Kensei should be impervious to basic hits with percentage basic hitting passives. Demon Hunter should be able to dodge whatever you toss at them, hit infinitely with skills, deflect bullets with katana and gun at the same time, reduce a chomp of 20 damage and retaliate with roars for unresistable damage.
Right?
Spellthieves are cancerous for the fact they'll always make any future additions related to magic their DLC, and bonus points if the magic is like, really good but limited to a certain class, but they can still use it uber efficiently, and sometimes better than the classes the magic belongs to anyway.
God rest Ranger's soul if their spells didn't require a Bow.
Now on to solution, and deviating the focus from the OP a little to solve ST's problem:
- Either make Copy Spells receive a big 8 round cooldown when used, or make them vanish on the first use.
- Negotiate should really be a skill that can be silenced by the Silence status, it's ass to fight something that removes your debuffs for FREE, not even a status inflict check.
Re: The lightning hits for a fatal blow! - Shujin - 11-22-2017
Aka, how it is currently, aside from those few skills?
Enchantments/Mage or evoker magic?=They do not get Auto enchantment, don´t get all the evoker passives that increase the magic damage by a shit ton, no HSDW, No Charge mind
Hexer magic:All the offensive magic? Yes but no hexes/Curses to make the effects so fucking strong like menovs fang. Only problem currenlty is DK
Priest: Might be a few more tiny problems but nothing overbearing aside form, you guessed it, the none stat using Malmelo.
Tactician: Well fine you got me here. But thats a general problem of tactician being unattractive as a class even in Groups.
Ranger: The skill used for the spells strong effects is ranger exclusive and bow magic.
So no need to get silly with your posts. Spell thieves aren´t better in whatever magic they use, at max they are at the same level. Being able to mix and adjust is kinda their whole theme. Why would we make the class shit, when it has a cool concept with only very little problems?