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+--- Thread: The lightning hits for a fatal blow! (/showthread.php?tid=5000)
Re: The lightning hits for a fatal blow! - Fern - 11-22-2017
Locking Spellthief out of support spells not only makes the class a lot more unattractive, but also throws it at the "weak rogue promotion" club. The only reason why Spellthief is related to the issue is because you can mix DK, Malmelo and Sanctuary together- the rest of the stolen spells they can do, but slightly worse compared to the original class since it doesn't have the same skills that support it as the original (ex: Annorum, Hexer curses, Detailed Care, etc.)
Even if you blocked them from using support spells, it wouldn't change the core issues that are DK/Malmelo/Sanctuary. People could just change to Kensei/Hexer and stack multipliers over and over still, could be able to run Priest solely for Malmelo and Sanctuary as well.
"Don't search for the cat's fifth paw."
(yes that's a saying in my land-)
Re: The lightning hits for a fatal blow! - Autumn - 11-22-2017
"Shujin" Wrote:Halving the stats of Deathknighting is not fixing their abuseable factor at all. People use it for fallcall, the plus 10 stats are just like a bonus. So by only reducing the stats by 5 you won´t really fix the problem.
Yeahhh but fallcall's already been nerfed, it used to be double damage, taking stats down by 5 will help a lot cause I find the stat balling oppressive more than damage for an easily curable status.
Re: The lightning hits for a fatal blow! - Shujin - 11-22-2017
Just because it has been nerfed once already, doesn´t mean it can´t be nerfed more. Since it´s quite obviously one of the main culprits of any insane damage combos.
And statballing isn´t nearly as bad as 50% damage increase. And "Easily curable" might be true, but it´s even easier reapllied.
losing 20% HP a turn in addition to whatever you dish out, only cause you slapped menovs fang on someone and are Deathknighting, was never fair. Its the main strategy of most of our Hexer Tanks Combos(The most funny people also add a Isenshi to it, cause that spell also has a multi or two in it, extra laughs for CM and watching people with 50 scaled res still taking 500+ damage.) cause they are also slower so they don´t even really give a chance for someone to cure themself from fear or poison.
Also...50% to all damage is not seen anywhere else in the game, even Intensify Cold is "only" 50%, that only for ice and much shorter in it´s duration. The next damage boost that comes close to this is Boxer with full schwarzsturm, which oh lookie, you can even combine with this. Next Episode of why we should make multipliers add together before applying.
Re: The lightning hits for a fatal blow! - Autumn - 11-22-2017
Red cape can solve the issues that death knighting's fallcall has fairly quickly, people just get greedy for stats and opt in for cat's mask high mage's cape instead.
If any hexer can get off CM'd isenshi with only access to fleeting spectres (which is a 2 round fear) they're already putting just as much effort as a duelist would of to get the same damage so I think that point is irelevant, CM Fallcall isenshi is a huge number that can be stopped rather early, also I think you're forgetting about stuff like Voltiger which goes beyond a 50% multiplier, so do excel weapon modifiers, and some things that come close are river sword and even to some sense, buster cannon.
Re: The lightning hits for a fatal blow! - Shujin - 11-22-2017
Red cape only helps preeeetty late. Thats not really a cure for that, even less so when you are about to get one shotted anyway. Thats the actual reason it´s not being used. You more often than not lost the battle before it actually helps you, not saying it´s an useless item, it CAN help it just way to situational for most people to consider.
Volttigger is still harder to pull off aswell, but yeah I forgot about that one. Still point stands. Each you mentiond only work under quite specific conditions (Water damage only, you need to actually trigger an evasion from the front can be dodged) and not for everything like fallcall.
Kinda just adds to the argument that we REALLY should put a blockade right there. And thats probably easiest done with the Add multipliers before applying to the damage thing. I think if we have that, DK isn´t even THAT terrible anymore...It´s still stupid cause it´s universal damage, tough, even effecting status effects.
Re: The lightning hits for a fatal blow! - Neus - 11-29-2017
I could see a few of these changes happening;
DK getting its stat bonus nerfed.
Malmelo changed to scale its percent off of Faith.
Copy spells only being able to be used once per battle.
Re: The lightning hits for a fatal blow! - MegaBlues - 11-29-2017
If copy spells were only usable once per battle, Spellthief would need a massive overhaul. As it is, its only used as a magic goodie bag, along with Distortion and Create Shade, because no one wants to break their weapon and lose all of their stolen spells on mediocre attacks, and if someone actually wants to attack with a dagger, VA is a far superior choice.
DK should definitely have its stat bonus nerfed, since Fallcall already puts it above the self-Shine Knighting skill, and IMO class skills should be stronger than item potentials.
Malmelo should be changed to be some combination of a flat value alongside a percentage of Light ATK, both increased by rank. Mercalan healing in the game scales off of SWA+Light ATK, but the possible SWA that could be used to keep the skill balanced would be so small that it'd be simpler to just give it a floor instead. I also think that using Light ATK in place of Faith rewards people who build Will and use sources that specifically give Light ATK over Faith.
Re: The lightning hits for a fatal blow! - Chaos - 11-29-2017
"MegaBlues" Wrote:If copy spells were only usable once per battle, Spellthief would need a massive overhaul. As it is, its only used as a magic goodie bag, along with Distortion and Create Shade, because no one wants to break their weapon and lose all of their stolen spells on mediocre attacks, and if someone actually wants to attack with a dagger, VA is a far superior choice.If copy spells were once per battle, Final Flare/Hot Potato would see use. There is more to the class than Spell Snatch/Distortion/Create Shade/Mysterious/Negotiate, and while Negotiate is a cause for concern (See: Splash + Negotiate, for one), we're gonna have to see more of the class in action before Spellthief suddenly needs any sort of overhaul.
DK should definitely have its stat bonus nerfed, since Fallcall already puts it above the self-Shine Knighting skill, and IMO class skills should be stronger than item potentials.
Malmelo should be changed to be some combination of a flat value alongside a percentage of Light ATK, both increased by rank. Mercalan healing in the game scales off of SWA+Light ATK, but the possible SWA that could be used to keep the skill balanced would be so small that it'd be simpler to just give it a floor instead. I also think that using Light ATK in place of Faith rewards people who build Will and use sources that specifically give Light ATK over Faith.
If we're going to make Malmelo scale, it should be off of Scaled FAI/2 at best, not Light ATK, and any flat bonus it receives should be very minor, as in +0.5 ~ +1 per Rank. We should not reward Elemental ATK stackers with the most powerful healing spell in the game, especially when you can use it without being a Priest.
DK getting a stat boost nerf would be for the best, yes.
Re: The lightning hits for a fatal blow! - Shujin - 11-29-2017
Hm only once a battle sounds a bit harsh as a nerf. Can we maybe have a system instead that works something like Stolen spells have Class level*2% of it´s effectiveness(minimum 50%), making it also a good destiny choice that way?
I just feel that a one time used spell is a bit meh, if I have like to steal a Monsterskill everytime I use it once just to keep up my theme on that character. (aka I don´t want to go to argentyle cave eveytime just to steal that one snake magic on my acid user)
Re: The lightning hits for a fatal blow! - Slydria - 11-29-2017
I agree with the first two changes but Copy spells being once a battle only seems far too limiting.
I'd prefer a Copy Spell specific cooldown, say 3 Rounds when the Copy Spell is cast.
That way it's still frequent enough that you could have your "pick and choose" style of mage without being too gimped yet still slow enough that it's a notable flaw and there's some incentive for the intended style of taking spells from your enemies to throw back at them.
EDIT: I completely disagree with nerfing the effectiveness of stolen spells that hard, that would only ensure most people just run the spells that aren't impacted or where damage won't matter (such as Death Knighting).