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+--- Thread: Ghost Main Class / Passive Stats (/showthread.php?tid=5873)
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Ghost Main Class / Passive Stats - GSM - 01-19-2019
Alright, so I've been mostly thinking about Ghost in the context of Kensei and Ghost side-by-side, and something people don't bring up often are the main class stats.
One thing I want to draw attention to is that going from Duelist to Ghost actually nets you a loss in stats, unless you invest in the +5 RES innate for 5 SP to break even. Duelist as a base class nets you +1 STR, +2 CEL and +2 SKI, and Ghost nets you nothing as an advanced class. In contrast, Kensei gets it WAY better- +2 STR, +2 CEL, +2 SKI, and +2 LUC, with a +3/3 STR/SKI innate.
This means that Kensei, as a class with way better passives than Ghost and far more oppressive skills, gets a +9 stat advantage over its suicidal counterpart.
Personally, I don't think this is very healthy for the game, since Ghost is in a very poor spot right now, considering Kensei has way more potential and its passives alone make it incredibly powerful. So, I have two changes to propose (and an extra one for Pain Tolerance because by god):
Quote:Ghost gets main class stats of:
+2 STR
+1 CEL
+2 SKI
+1 LUC
+2 RES
Quote:Anti Curse innate changed to:
3 SP, +1 STR and +1 RES per rank.
Quote:(OPTIONAL) Pain Tolerance innate changed to:
3 SP, +12 HP per rank, +12 at max rank.
Each suggestion is because Ghost needs its antimage properties back, and Ghost is already so much of an SP sink that the other innates, particularly Anti Curse and Pain Tolerance, aren't really worth taking.
The main class stats reflect what you get with Rising Game (minus the WIL but whatever), and it's similar enough to Kensei and Duelist that it isn't terribly oppressive.
Anti Curse needs to be worth taking again, and 5 SP for 5 stats most people don't use on Ghost is kind of bad. 3 SP for 6, like Kensei, would be way more healthy.
The Pain Tolerance change is mostly because of the SP issues Ghost already has. 3 SP for the same +48 HP at max rank is way more tolerable than 5 SP, honestly, especially considering Soldier, a base class, gets +75 for 5 SP.
"BuT gSm, RiSiNg GaMe ExIsTs, GhOSt DoEsN't NeEd mAiN cLaSs StAtS!"
Bonus stats don't help you if you die before you can use them. And if people really do complain about Rising Game so much, then just make Rising Game a main class innate, problem solved.
What Ghost really needs is an even playing field to Kensei, and even if they don't have the insane Kensei passives, I want them to be able to stand a chance.
Re: Ghost Main Class / Passive Stats - PantherPrincess - 01-19-2019
I agree with this change Ghost really needs to have main class stat bonuses like the rest of the classes now that Wraithguard and Ether Invitation are nerfed. To add to this post I also think that Death Gaze needs a whole rework. It is probably the least used skill in the class and for an anti mage duelist class it has so many prerequisites for just a simple silence. IMO Death Gaze should be changed to something more suited to the likes of Absolute Fear, inflicting statuses like fear, silence, and hesitation however with its own phantomy twist such as applying a heavy Claret Call instead of removing it and making it so after using Death Gaze, Claret Call cannot be removed by any means for 2 rounds however this would make Death Gaze main class only.
Re: Ghost Main Class / Passive Stats - Kameron8 - 01-19-2019
GSM post_id=34963 time=1547896882 user_id=582 Wrote:What Ghost really needs is an even playing field to Kensei, and even if they don't have the insane Kensei passives, I want them to be able to stand a chance.
I only have a few things to comment on, but I don't think this is necessarily an indicator that Ghost is weak. The class itself has Wraithguard, Last Chance, and Pain Tolerance, which -- when coupled with Eviter and any potential Evasion procs -- is actually a fairly substantial amount of mitigation. I don't disagree that the class is, 9 times out of 10, suboptimal to take over Kensei, but there's a chance that's more the fault of Kensei than Ghost.
For example, how often do you see builds successfully dodge attacks and not run Kensei? Outside of Tacticians relying on Enemy Evaluation, that number is low; and that's a generous estimate.
I'm not going to derail the entire topic by delving into Hit vs Evade, passive bonuses, or anything of the sort. Instead, I'll offer my two cents: I think it would be far more interesting and effective to tweak the useless Ghost skills, than to add more stats to the class. This includes Death Gaze, Painproof, the active effect of Rebound, Tombstone, Red Rain, and Dark Imbue. The fact that half of Ghost's arsenal is almost universally avoided leaves it in a position where it fulfills precisely two roles: tanking up as a Duelist to try and wall out opponents with raw stats, and using Ether Invitation as much as possible.
Personally, I think that niche is pretty boring. It's tricky when the base class is so powerful, but I think the solution here isn't to heighten how effectively a Ghost can out-stat you, but to adjust the skills that have no purpose into a more central (and still effective) theme. What even is Ghost? An anti-mage? A tank? Something in between? All we know is that they're supposed to be 'difficult to kill fighters'.
GSM post_id=34963 time=1547896882 user_id=582 Wrote:Each suggestion is because Ghost needs its antimage properties back, and Ghost is already so much of an SP sink that the other innates, particularly Anti Curse and Pain Tolerance, aren't really worth taking.
In the same vein of what I've been harping on, I absolutely agree with this. Ghost has a ton of trouble managing SP, since Rising Game, Claret Call, Ether Invitation, and to a lesser extent, Fitting Form and Pain Tolerance, are all 5 SP and mandatory. I would love to see Claret Call, Pain Tolerance, and Anti-Curse reduced to 3 SP maximums without losing any efficiency. This is especially true if the other skills are reworked into something that a Ghost might actually want to consider taking.
I apologize for the rambling, I intended to try and make this point in far fewer words.
Re: Ghost Main Class / Passive Stats - Autumn - 01-19-2019
I agree with most of Kam's points, a lot of Ghost's passives and innates feel mandatory and are expensive as all hell to even purchase, but you still need to do so anyways, I'd like to see Ghost's stat passive at least reduced to 3SP but I feel as if STR doesn't fit here, maybe perhaps instead you could give it something more interesting and more in tune with anti-curse/magic, and have it grant +10 or +15 status res per rank alongside +1 RES, capping out at 3 ranks more than likely.
This is more so to due with Ghosts having the most status res Pre-GR, which now they really don't, another point that Kam brings up is the evade issue ghosts have, I'd like to see fitting form possibly grant some evade as well so it may compare and go together with kensei, if it gains that it can easily stay at 5 total ranks.
Re: Ghost Main Class / Passive Stats - Kameron8 - 01-19-2019
Spoops post_id=34972 time=1547920842 user_id=193 Wrote:This is more so to due with Ghosts having the most status res Pre-GR, which now they really don't, another point that Kam brings up is the evade issue ghosts have, I'd like to see fitting form possibly grant some evade as well so it may compare and go together with kensei, if it gains that it can easily stay at 5 total ranks.
This is less an issue with Ghosts, and more an issue with anyone who isn't a Kensei. That aside, my main point is that the active skills should be reworked, and that the class shouldn't just rely on a trainload of passive stats to be worth using. Adding evade to fitting form and adding status resistance to a passive stat trait isn't really in line with what I was trying to express.
Re: Ghost Main Class / Passive Stats - Autumn - 01-19-2019
Kameron8 post_id=34973 time=1547925321 user_id=215 Wrote:Spoops post_id=34972 time=1547920842 user_id=193 Wrote:This is more so to due with Ghosts having the most status res Pre-GR, which now they really don't, another point that Kam brings up is the evade issue ghosts have, I'd like to see fitting form possibly grant some evade as well so it may compare and go together with kensei, if it gains that it can easily stay at 5 total ranks.
This is less an issue with Ghosts, and more an issue with anyone who isn't a Kensei. That aside, my main point is that the active skills should be reworked, and that the class shouldn't just rely on a trainload of passive stats to be worth using. Adding evade to fitting form and adding status resistance to a passive stat trait isn't really in line with what I was trying to express.
I see where you're coming from here, I didn't mean to divulge off topic into evade either, but I do see where you're coming from and I agree fully, while some actives such as Ether Invitation, Wraithguard and sanguine star all see very wide use due to the very powerful nature of these skills, on the same vein Ghost sees skills that see virtually no use, as it comes with too heavy of a downside or not enough of a benefit to be worth it, these skills include Death Gaze, Gravestone, Painproof.
I'd like to see ghost improved in a myriad of ways as well.
Re: Ghost Main Class / Passive Stats - Lolzytripd - 01-19-2019
Death gaze and grave stone could probably get looked at it,
Death gaze could probably do with removing the claret call requirement and gaining an effect if the target is marked.
Re: Ghost Main Class / Passive Stats - Senna - 01-21-2019
Actually, I can agree to this one. +1 like. Ghost is kinda an underdog comparing to Kensei. Comparing to the soon to be two, Ghost needs a reason to be a main-class art.
Re: Ghost Main Class / Passive Stats - Chaos - 01-21-2019
Pain Tolerance doesn't need to reach near-Fortitude levels of +HP/Rank when Ghost has several powerful mitigation/survival skills, and Anti-Curse is fine as-is.
Rising Game, on the other hand, needs a rework. This skill was based on some very old systems, and doesn't play well with GR's Softcaps, forcing Ghosts to either lower stats accordingly to get the best effect, or see Rising Game's boosts heavily mitigated by Diminished Returns. In my opinion, it needs to start focusing on something that isn't facing Softcaps, perferably offensive substats.
Maybe Ghost can get Class Stats with that, but really, we just need to make Rising Game work with the current system, and then look at everything else.
Re: Ghost Main Class / Passive Stats - Lolzytripd - 01-22-2019
Chaos post_id=35011 time=1548113984 user_id=75 Wrote:Pain Tolerance doesn't need to reach near-Fortitude levels of +HP/Rank when Ghost has several powerful mitigation/survival skills, and Anti-Curse is fine as-is.
Rising Game, on the other hand, needs a rework. This skill was based on some very old systems, and doesn't play well with GR's Softcaps, forcing Ghosts to either lower stats accordingly to get the best effect, or see Rising Game's boosts heavily mitigated by Diminished Returns. In my opinion, it needs to start focusing on something that isn't facing Softcaps, perferably offensive substats.
Maybe Ghost can get Class Stats with that, but really, we just need to make Rising Game work with the current system, and then look at everything else.
Perhaps by increasing scaled stats by al percentage of your missing health instead, I'm not sure what the best number would be, but I'd assume its somewhere between 25% and 50% of missing health %