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+--- Thread: Let's Miragetalk about Miragewalk (/showthread.php?tid=6137)
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Let's Miragetalk about Miragewalk - Kameron8 - 04-23-2019
I believe the Miragewalk enchant provides far too much potency for the up-time it has. With a base duration of 3 turns, and the ability to refresh it with cheap skills (Shukuchi, Cobra stuff, etc) or outright attacks (Hanging, Retreating Swipe, Flip Shot, etc), it essentially just provides a permanent bonus.
The obvious comparison to make here is with Disengage -- which costs 3 skill points, 3 momentum, 15 FP, and a 3 turn cooldown to provide a 45 HP heal and 45 evade.
![[Image: toCNZwY.png]](https://i.imgur.com/toCNZwY.png)
Miragewalk grants 55% of the evasion Disengage does, often costs either one momentum (or three, when performing an attack or ability you would WANT to do anyway), has no cooldown, and costs no FP. The sacrifices for taking this enchant are either 20 FP and HP, or half damage from cinders.
![[Image: Lh9qe0m.png]](https://i.imgur.com/Lh9qe0m.png)
Nearly everybody with any evasion runs this enchant due to how trivial it is to gain the effects of it. Waiting it out is not an option, and punching through it is equally improbable with the current balance of Hit vs Evade. In the event this is stacked with Disengage, there is no feasible way to hit that character. This would be fine, of course, if the delay between these windows of power was anything meaningful. I suggest a cooldown be added after the effects of Miragewalk expire, such that it cannot be reapplied the turn after it was removed. This would provide a bare minimum of one turn to try and counterattack.
Re: Let's Miragetalk about Miragewalk - K Peculier - 04-23-2019
I don't think its that far from the truth that miragewalk is essentially MANDATORY on dodge builds because of how easy it is to proc and how frequently you can with a giant number of mobility skills.
It doesn't exactly have much of a counter besides tickle damage as well.
For more meaningful plays rather I agree that it should have at least a turn cooldown so that its not just a static 25+ evade as Kameron says.
Re: Let's Miragetalk about Miragewalk - Trexmaster - 04-23-2019
I support adding a cooldown to how often Miragewalk is allowed to activate given how trivial it is to reapply.
Especially since as mentioned, offensive skills proc the effect too, so it's not as if you're dedicating the momentum to applying Miragewalk. It's an added benefit on top of what you'd already want to be doing in a fight, so it's effectively a free bonus.
The OP already elaborated succinctly about it, though.
Trading either a niche counter (cinderwalk) or a minor bonus (20 HP/FP) for 25 Evade is more than a good trade for builds that make use of Evade. Given that's 12.5 CEL worth of Evade for 2 VIT worth of HP and 4 WIL worth of FP. Granted it isn't permanent, it's more often than not effectively permanent given you're forcing your opponent to go through it for the majority of their hits in most cases.
Re: Let's Miragetalk about Miragewalk - Akame - 04-23-2019
One round cooldown sounds good, so it only activates once per round.
Re: Let's Miragetalk about Miragewalk - Autumn - 04-23-2019
I think a cooldown of some sort should be added, perhaps 2 rounds would suffice, if not just 1, feels impossible to hit anyone who can keep this up constantly.
Re: Let's Miragetalk about Miragewalk - Snake - 04-24-2019
1 raounde kooldown aftah it expires/proccs pliz
Re: Let's Miragetalk about Miragewalk - Senna - 04-24-2019
I don't think it needs a CD since it'd lost it's charm (Since I don't believe people can trigger it AFTER they end turn, I could be wrong, if that's the case, one round CD is fine so they can only use it once a round). It's not mandatory as people assume, people just have it because it's a compensation for the evade they've lost with the new trait rework. I have a evasive character and It don't even use MW; It uses Soul of war since they teleport more than 'move', lol. I have enough evasive buffs to reach +300 without it whilst nerfing my foe's hit by like 30.
Perhaps the duration dropping to two rounds, including the round it was used on. Since it doesn't exactly stack and it's only for one basic attack. As much as people assume it's very strong, that's not exactly the case. It only seem strong if you're running a build that's not hit stack, not mult hit, not basic attack crit bonus and so on. Hell, 95% of the time, FP is used to trigger this enchantment if the actual move command isn't used (Which people BARELY use these days without Hoove or Charge Attack). I understand the complains but if one basic attack with -25 hit is too game breaking, autohit is always an option since Dev ensure made 90% of the classes in game USES Autohit.
I ain't exactly standing up for it but ya'll got so many options to get around it, lol. Let's not murder the enchantment because little Tom has devil luck and dodge your first basic attack each round.
Re: Let's Miragetalk about Miragewalk - Kameron8 - 04-24-2019
Senna post_id=36285 time=1556112244 user_id=2036 Wrote:I don't think it needs a CD since it'd lost it's charm (Since I don't believe people can trigger it AFTER they end turn, I could be wrong, if that's the case, one round CD is fine so they can only use it once a round). It's not mandatory as people assume, people just have it because it's a compensation for the evade they've lost with the new trait rework. I have a evasive character and It don't even use MW; It uses Soul of war since they teleport more than 'move', lol. I have enough evasive buffs to reach +300 without it whilst nerfing my foe's hit by like 30.
Perhaps the duration dropping to two rounds, including the round it was used on. Since it doesn't exactly stack and it's only for one basic attack. As much as people assume it's very strong, that's not exactly the case. It only seem strong if you're running a build that's not hit stack, not mult hit, not basic attack crit bonus and so on. Hell, 95% of the time, FP is used to trigger this enchantment if the actual move command isn't used (Which people BARELY use these days without Hoove or Charge Attack). I understand the complains but if one basic attack with -25 hit is too game breaking, autohit is always an option since Dev ensure made 90% of the classes in game USES Autohit.
I ain't exactly standing up for it but ya'll got so many options to get around it, lol. Let's not murder the enchantment because little Tom has devil luck and dodge your first basic attack each round.
Sorry, all I got from this is ''Don't nerf this because I don't think it's powerful''. Can you elaborate at all here? Evade is in most cases surpassing hit in the current state of the game, and 'only one attack' is half of your actions that occurs every turn for free. If you have to move to close distance from whatever procced Miragewalk -- for example, Flip Shot -- you could very well be spending your ENTIRE turn to remove this buff that lasts for 'just one hit'.
Senna post_id=36285 time=1556112244 user_id=2036 Wrote:It only seem strong if you're running a build that's not hit stack, not mult hit, not basic attack crit bonus and so on.
It's strong against literally every build that needs to make a hit check, yes, this is true.
Senna post_id=36285 time=1556112244 user_id=2036 Wrote:I understand the complains but if one basic attack with -25 hit is too game breaking, autohit is always an option since Dev ensure made 90% of the classes in game USES Autohit.
An enchant you slapped on your stylish beach sandals should not solely dictate whether or not you are allowed to fight your opponent with only Fray.
Re: Let's Miragetalk about Miragewalk - Senna - 04-25-2019
I didn't want to rant but...
Of course I'm going to say don't nerf this because It's not crazy. If it was crazy, this thread should have been a thing the a week after MW got out like the Ghost thread and so on. Why? Because the moment it gets nerf and people start hitting for 200+ damage whereas basic hitters comes down to whoever is faster and do more damage or who can run away more than the other, people will either switch to tanks again or cry about evade build being shit just like before MW dropped...Like History repeating itself again. Firstly, from the amount of people I've fought with and against it, It was never exactly this "OMGTHISSHITISBROKENPLNERF" enchantment. It's decent, sure but it's not dumb; and this is coming from someone that has several basic attack focus characters, tank and evasive. Is it mandatory? Depends on your build; if you can already get a high enough evade, I see running other boot enchantment is always an option, it ain't holding you by your neck screaming "YOU GOTTA USE ME! YOU GOT NO OPTION". Sure, it can be annoying at times but it's something that can be deal with. And before you say "Oh but you haven't tried it on Bonder only basic attack or VA basic attack!", lets get this straight; Bonder = Hit stack. You get a free 30 hit just by having one bonded youkai and a technique that gives you another +25 hit (Or more), and let's not mention that +6 stats and the install base stats; pretty much negating whatever MW adds on 80+% of the time--If not completed ignores it. What about VA? VA can be played more the one way, sure, but it was never a class that provide alot of hit chances without another class's support; this problem was mentioned in the discord AND over game a month or two ago to Dev, before MW was this much of a 'problem' It only felt nerfed before because Ghost lost it's hit stack and Kensei takes too much effort to get the passive. What about MG? That's bad too right? Funny enough, I run a MG and I have a QD on belt just for people that runs MW. Switch it to second hand and Boom, problem solved, overcharge overload rape incoming. Ranger? Ranger already has a fuck ton of evade bonus, a class that can easily break 300 evade just by using Flip shot WITHOUT EVEN USING THAT ENCHANTMENT. Why? Because Ranger has a passive that gives them crazy about of evade just by using an archer movement offensive ability and a buff that gives them 5+(luc/2) extra evade for 3 rounds. How I know this? I made a meme about it a few months ago with the katana bow; before MW was even a thing, during the time noone used evasive builds anymore. Them using the enchantment is just overkill but nothing is cry about.
You have certain classes that NEEDS this enchantment to survive (Or try to since people flat out need +250 in battle evade to last against these supercharged race) since they don't have evade stack like Ranger and Rogue classes. Now to see people complain about 'It's too strong because you can use it with this ranger and never touch them', or 'Bully has made a path with a demon and now I can't land my 40~80% hits because he has MW active' (Shit, that much hit? I'll run them chances always), is just over reacting. I've used it. I've lost countless battle to people that doesn't even use bloodborne, some weren't even using hit stacking. Hell, I've even lost horribly against people that uses AUTOHITS because, guess what? Autohit doesn't give a shit about your evade stack. It can counter some and it can be countered, like everything else on the game. It can be useful and it can be completely useless, it ain't a safe option like Soul of War, bloodborne(?) and the other 2(?) pvp enchantment for the legs.
Rant end
Quote:Like I said, the changes, if it can still can be proc'd after you've ended your turn somehow (I'll assume via Kensei||Ghost/MA||DH - Cobra class counter into a crit and using the Leap or Shi again (Don't know if it works or not)) then a CD like Winged Serpent and so on whereas it can only be triggered once a turn is a GOOD OPTION.
Editors edit: Made a mistake and wrote hit instead of evade at the Ranger section. There is one more error but I can't find it atm. An about that's supposed to be amount.
Re: Let's Miragetalk about Miragewalk - PantherPrincess - 04-25-2019
I think a 1 round cooldown is the best choice. The enchant itself is not broken or something, it's just too accumulative and spammable. It would keep things on a nice balance that way it's not long before you can proc it again but there's shifts in between. A 2-3 round cooldown is just plain overkill and would make it useless so I don't agree with that.