Single Shot vs Multi-Shot - Printable Version

Single Shot vs Multi-Shot - Printable Version

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Single Shot vs Multi-Shot - Rendar - 01-20-2015

Okay, let me preface this with the fact that I'm not exactly using precise numbers for the multi-shot guns, but bear with me with numbers I have seen in use before. Thanks.

Glaring Red Eyed Person: Scoped Rifle (15 Power)
Hit: 203.72%
Dmg: 15
Crit: 94%
Glaring Red Eyed Person says "Bang."
Critical Hit! Glaring Red Eyed Person attacks Sia Malik with Scoped Rifle and hits them!
Sia Malik takes 507 Pierce damage.
Sia Malik takes 12 Null damage.
The battle has ended.

This is a 15 power Sniper Rifle with 40 WIL and 71 LUC.

How did I do this? With 20 momentum total

Charge WEapon, Charge Weapon, Charge Weapon, , Assault Order, Headshot.

3, 7, 10, 13, 16, 20.

(1 turn, 1 turn, 2 turn, 2 turn, 3 turn, 3 turn. )
That is 500 damage with a critical.

2.5x Damage, then 1.75x damage on a crit, +55 or so damage from my assault order.

Twenty Momentum with a very specific self set up, with 1 shot that .can. and will be reflected via a spirit mirror ( Which hopefully gets nerfed soon ).

For the same amount of momentum, in much fewer turns, an akimbo gunner can do a lot more.

Let's assume they have someone in range, and are a kensei. Simply because it and ghost are the best classes for the akimbo shooter.

Let's assume the gunner does 24 damage with each gun, I've seen it in action or 22. Let's go with 22 though for posterities sake.

3 M, 6 M, 10 M

Main, sub, Main(or sub)

18 shots total. 22 damage per shot that ignores all defense. 18*22=396.

Let's add in null shell damage of 6 each is 108 damage. Not including any damage from material type < which should proc alot > that's 504 damage.

Oh, look at that. 1 turn, and half the momentum and it's already dealing .more. damage. Mind you. This is without any crits being dealt. < The damage per shot is more about 19 per, but the crits should be frequent enough to counteract and balance it. >

That gives them more chances to proc Spark Drive in a single turn, ignoring spirit mirrors, as well as just outright dealing more damage. As MG/Not Duelst that can still get 16 shots in while moving away 4 squares, which will make them pretty much always better.

In short? MULTI SHOT GUNS DEAL WAY TO MUCH DAMAGE and need a nerf, or Single-Shot guns need a buff because I deal 61 damage on a not-crit with my rifle, compared to someone shooting 6 times, and even with 10 power on their guns, if they have a damage shell or a damage ore type on them, they will almost always do more damage.

With 58 WIL, and 54 SKI, and a 7 power Autopistol Dual WIeld, let's figure out DPS.

58/4 and 54/2
14.5 and 27
3 and 6
that's 16 damage per shot Let's add on 6 DPS for null shell < or any shell really. Doesn't have to be any but Null gives most unresistable damage.

396+ whatever shell bonuses trigger, or if they're a mage, they can get some SWEET +10 damage per shot from augment.

http://neus-projects.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=551

STILL A RELEVANT THREAD TO BALANCE PURPOSES.

Re: Single Shot vs Multi-Shot - Grandpa - 01-20-2015

The only ideas I have are to change hit rates for autopistols to something much lower. Most gunners I see have over 200% on all targets and 100% on the more dodgey people. But then that doesn't really help shotguns or rifles. They need something to make them not suck. I wouldn't say more damage but maybe something like +% accuracy/crit when in range of a shotgun and +% accuracy/crit when past 3+ range?

Re: Single Shot vs Multi-Shot - Soapy - 01-20-2015

Oh, looks like Sderg made a new character. Here we go.. :roll:

Have you considered using conversion gloves or factoring in the massive bonus to shells and the range advantage?
48% Hesitation is no joke, neither is -24 SKI/CEL, or 12 round Interference.

But hey, maybe it'd be better if you could combo it with a class that focused entirely on inflicting status effects.. :roll:

Re: Single Shot vs Multi-Shot - Grandpa - 01-20-2015

"[url=http://neus-projects.net/viewtopic.php?p=3790#p3790 Wrote:Soapy » Tue Jan 20, 2015 7:08 am[/url]"]Oh, looks like Sderg made a new character. Here we go.. :roll:

Have you considered using conversion gloves or factoring in the massive bonus to shells and the range advantage?
48% Hesitation is no joke, neither is -24 SKI/CEL, or 12 round Interference.

But hey, maybe it'd be better if you could combo it with a class that focused entirely on inflicting status effects.. :roll:

You sure are applying a lot to the discussion by being so passive aggressive.

That aside, even with those bonuses, this is about comparing the time frame in which the damage was applied and the damage itself. As they are, autopistols and handguns in general are far too strong in comparison. Especially given how many more chances they have to proc whatever, even with a lowered percentage. Having a high critical rate (Which most gunners do innately) means they're going to be applying status effects more often.

Re: Single Shot vs Multi-Shot - Chaos - 01-20-2015

Perhaps people should start using Ensui, or those anti-gun equipments/skills. No, really, anything that can reduce damage taken from Guns will (at least help) solve the whole 'OMFG MULTI-ROUND GUNS OP' issue here.

Re: Single Shot vs Multi-Shot - Soapy - 01-20-2015

Did Ensui ever get fixed? I remember it didn't work before.

Re: Single Shot vs Multi-Shot - Rendar - 01-20-2015

"[url=http://neus-projects.net/viewtopic.php?p=3790#p3790 Wrote:Soapy » Tue Jan 20, 2015 6:08 am[/url]"]Oh, looks like Sderg made a new character. Here we go.. :roll:

Have you considered using conversion gloves or factoring in the massive bonus to shells and the range advantage?
48% Hesitation is no joke, neither is -24 SKI/CEL, or 12 round Interference.

But hey, maybe it'd be better if you could combo it with a class that focused entirely on inflicting status effects.. :roll:

[Image: yo-dawg-i-heard-you-like-passive-aggress...ironic.jpg]

I know how 'good' a sniper rifle is with it's over-charge and stuff, considering it also needs to have that made into a single 5 SP thing with arcane gun rather than 5 SP on its own, 10 SP for shotguns, and 1 extra SP for pistols.

Anyways, Chaos you are right, an Ensui would pretty much nullify a lot of the DPS that multi-shot gunners get, especially whenever it's reducing incoming damage by 7-per. However that's a pretty rare item that forecasts your damage type with heavy metagaming afterwards. Hell a lot of people metagame before a fight if you 'pulls out x weapon'. < "You pulled out a rifle, I spirit mirror!" >. Not to mention with an ensui, you'll almost always deal an inherent 5% less damage.

It still has a horrible issue with the fact that it's damage can pretty much outright compare to 20 momentum's worth of preperation and 3 turns, compared to it's .single turn. of just shooting. A lot.

Re: Single Shot vs Multi-Shot - Ranylyn - 01-20-2015

Why are you using a single shot gun without charging the shells (the gunner skills, not the weapon?) That's kind of the whole benefit to single shot. Especially on a shotgun which trades it's range for not needing to charge weapon to do damage worth blinking at.

A single shot overcharge (which now only has a 2 turn cooldown instead of a 4, so a rank 3 reload is 3M to remove it instantly) will generally do more than spending the same amount of momentum just charging the sniper. Due to the nature of Just One Overcharge and Overcharge in general, this is usually a pretty bad idea on a multishot gun. And as stated, you have things like 48% Hesitation, hundreds of lightning damage, silence, knockdown, absurd movement range reduction (Seriously, try closing in against a Celcius Shell sniper without some kind of movement skill like blink) and a plethora of other effects that multishot guns simply can't match.

Multishot is raw output. Single shot is tactical. I honestly don't see the issue. If you feel single shot is too weak, run a Sniper/Hunter setup and pick whichever one you need at a given moment. Sure, it won't match Akimbo in damage, but it's reliable overall.

Re: Single Shot vs Multi-Shot - Rendar - 01-20-2015

Pretty sure that you don't need to be tactical whatsoever with akimbo gunners. Namely because whenever you can dish out 400+ damage in a turn, most everything is dead.

Re: Single Shot vs Multi-Shot - Soapy - 01-20-2015

"[url=http://neus-projects.net/viewtopic.php?p=3798#p3798 Wrote:Rendar » Tue Jan 20, 2015 1:08 pm[/url]"]*angry sderg noises*

Seriously, grow up.

1. The game is not really balanced around your characters.
2. You being wrong actually isn't because I dislike you.
3. Using images will not make you any less wrong.
4. Ignoring things will not make them go away.
5. You haven't responded despite replying.
6. You replied to say nothing yet again.