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+--- Thread: Possible Cinder Abuse Nerf Idea (/showthread.php?tid=6270)
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Possible Cinder Abuse Nerf Idea - Bryce_Hego - 06-18-2019
This is not to nerf cinder tiles as a whole, nor is it to make frequently using them completely obsolete, but after watching a couple spars with heavy cinder usage with lots of knockback/pull effects, I get the feeling that it might be giving too much damage for the cost it takes.
My idea should be able to be easily tweaked, but what if there was diminishing returns on the damage of cinders? now hear me out, I don't mean over the course of the entire battle, just a per round thing.
Example: You get slapped through like 5 Cinder tiles in a single attack, each burns you for 50 damage and you just took 250 damage on top of the slap that probably did about 100+ for probably not that much cost, but wait, they hit you with a pulling ability, and you slide through for another 250 damage, looks like this isn't going in your favor, huh? Should of built fire resistance I guess.
Well let's say hypothetically, after each instance of damage from a cinder (for that round), the damage is decreased by 10%, which stacks to a maximum of 50%, again, these numbers could be changed around in your own head to be more balanced. So in that same instance from before, the person slapped through 5 cinder tiles would instead take 50 + 45 + 40 + 35 + 30 damage, meaning the cinders only 200 damage, not too much of a nerf, you're still getting some hefty damage.
Now for the pull effect, it would consistently be 25 damage after hitting the damage reduction cap for that round, meaning getting pulled through them after a hard slap through the cinders only does 125 damage, which would discourage the person that is heavily using the cinder tiles to deal their damage for them. This way they wouldn't be oppressing little jimmy and his lack of spiked treads and lack of fire-walk. Saying it once more for good measure, the numbers I gave can be switched out for your own, they were purely ones I thought up off the top of my head, and in hindsight might be too much.
Re: Possible Cinder Abuse Nerf Idea - Fern - 06-19-2019
Can't believe I was raced to making the cinder thread.
![[Image: unknown.png]](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/242110972259467264/590692588722454555/unknown.png)
Here we have a No Charge Mind Sear being used to its fullest capacity with Scarlet Twister, Relent Gale (Quick Gale) and maybe Astral Belt's pull (Astral Gravity) if you feel like it. This is my character performing the aforementioned combo in order to provide a screenshot example of what can be done.
There has been a rising surge of tank characters that stack damage reductions and abuse pulls/pushing abilities with cinders, Demon Hunter (Charge > Bash across flames, Jump Cancel > Winged Serpent > Charge > Bash across flames) and Black Knight (Forced Move) being the most common offenders alongside Ghost's Scarlet Twister.
I think the most simple solution here would be to make it so cinders do full damage when you end the round on them, and half damage if you're pushed/pulled across them. I do know Flamewalk exists and the effect would stack with this idea, but I also think it'd make the cinder builds more tolerable in general. Because otherwise it's roughly 300 to 400 unresistable damage happening frequently, unaffected by DEF/RES.
"Fire Resist, Red Letter and Chun Youkai Install."
Red Letter is countered by the Nihilist glove which people wear if they want to make sure their cinders are absorbed. As a reminder, Nihilist makes you ignore absorbption effects.
Chun Install can be removed with Requinite, the Magic Stone, which dispels two benefitial status effects.
Fire Resist is not something that can be easily tied in with a lot of builds. Sometimes you urgently need other materials or boots slot. Generally 'cinder cheesing' makes quick work out of other characters, and even in PVE with the right setups.
TL;DR
I think cinders should be half effective when a character/monster is dragged across them, a la Flamewalk, and the aforementioned enchant could stack with this effect. Cinders can remain fully effective when the character ends their round on them.
Re: Possible Cinder Abuse Nerf Idea - Snake - 06-19-2019
Thanks, Luminary Element. Thanks, SPL 4. Thanks, STR granting HP.
Those three additions to the game made Cinder builds become way, way too overbearing to fight. The game's balance tilted again to the wrong spot, Dev. Especially when Cinders tend to not only damage big, but also last for over 5 rounds thanks to Talents. And pull effects cannot be resisted, which makes some classes literally yoink and push you across Cinders. Those same classes don't even need to build anything but tankyness and Fire ATK.
I believe damage from Cinders should have some sort of diminishing return every time you take damage from it... So after first Cinder tile you take damage, any subsequential damage reduced by 50% until a minimum of 1 damage, and this 'cinder resistance' lasts for 2 rounds.
I've seen PvP fights where four people just win against an enemy team by doing coordinated pulls through rows of Cinders for over 600 damage per round. And that's no bueno.
Re: Possible Cinder Abuse Nerf Idea - RedtailPinny - 06-19-2019
That was me in Fern's post, by the way. that brought me down from 850HP to 150. Seven hundred damage because someone set up a cinder field, then used a pull move, then pushed me through it. That can all be done in a single turn. Meanwhile, that same character has enough defense and resistance to bring my Ryemeis to sub-100 damage. That's a huge discrepancy in efficiency. My character in question has 40res, but that's not enough to stop being oneshot by someone who, as said before, charge bashes me for 400 damage, then leaping lizard winged serpents to the other side, then charge bashes me again for 400 damage. In 4M they did 800 damage to me, whereas I have to spend 6M using Charge Mind, then 6M maneuvering closer and finally attacking to MAYBE do 300-400, depending on their build. Nice.
Re: Possible Cinder Abuse Nerf Idea - Bryce_Hego - 06-19-2019
I'm gonna be honest Snake and Fern seem like you both want cinder tile users to SUFFER while I want them to be LESS INTIMIDATINGLY STRONG but not useless. 50% reduction for all push/pulls doesn't sound too evil, but 50% reduction per cinder tile means 1 and a half cinder tiles worth of damage and then you can't do anymore with them. Maybe I was too light on the numbers I gave, but it's not my choice at the end of the day.
Re: Possible Cinder Abuse Nerf Idea - Snake - 06-19-2019
What suffering? Pre-GR Cinders often dealt a maximum of 10-15 damage and that was already a lot. Now thanks to means of stacking damage on them, you can effectively make each tile pushed onto them deal a static, unresistable and armor-ignoring 50~ damage. Bonus points if your enemy is enchanted by Redgull and has Fire Weakness.
They're just way too OP to be even something right now. The only thing that'd keep them from being overbearing is "Oh but we have Spiked Threads!"... But nah. Pulls ignore Spiked Threads. And you take damage from them regardless.
So whatever Dev decides to do, I sure hope it ends up making the game a bit more fair for everyone, not just heavily inclined to 70 DEF/RES/STR builds that puke out Cinders and push you into them while RPing that they're doing it skillfully, getting easy wins and flexing that they are badasses just because you can't fight back.
Re: Possible Cinder Abuse Nerf Idea - Fern - 06-19-2019
Bryce_Hego post_id=36935 time=1560913847 user_id=2080 Wrote:I'm gonna be honest Snake and Fern seem like you both want cinder tile users to SUFFER while I want them to be LESS INTIMIDATINGLY STRONG but not useless.
I don't wish for them to be useless, hence why I'd rather push/pulls make cinders deal 50% of their damage by default. I wouldn't want for my own fire users to be useless either, that'd be counter-productive. On the other hand I'm of the opinion that cinders as they stand are very easy to abuse to the point they quickly dispatch most players (and monsters) in the majority of the cases, some even with fire resist included.
Re: Possible Cinder Abuse Nerf Idea - Kiranis - 06-19-2019
Oh look a conversation I actually have some stake in YAYYYYY
I have no idea about PVP but the few times i have fought iv found cider's very unreliable but maybe i'm not building for decent abuse.
however do not agree that they need a nerf against monsters
For one thing the entire idea that your balancing for PVE is absurd who are you balancing it for the monsters?
for another I can easily hit 60-80 sear damage per tile what makes it strong is the ai is extremely simple and always takes the shortest path to trying to hit something in the face (again these are pve elements im not saying they need to be made smarter)
In PVP Theoretically there are many counters to being cindered to death. anti knockback (which is coming to BK so weird timing to this thread) the boots that halve cinder damage Sanctuary ruins cinder builds entirely
I'm not saying your complaint is without merit Xanatos (Ashen Hyattr) can hit upwards of 100 damage per cinder tile and f i cared about pvp i'm sure i could keep that number while abusing pulling shot or charge bash or Domino to BURY someone.
I suspect that it's the outlar players (much like it always is) that make this an "issue" in the first place adding airborne to explosion to explosion was in the end the right decisions and I suggest something similar should be implemented elsewhere because i don't think nerfing cinders is the solution at least not directly.
TLDR Cinders don't need a nerf if your building for cinder abuse of course it's gonna be abusable.
Re: Possible Cinder Abuse Nerf Idea - Akame - 06-19-2019
Fire should be patted out after being tread on too much.
I'd offer making cinders change to a different field hazard tile entirely (probably a gray-looking cinder tile with a different name?) after they are stepped on, pulled over, and pushed on, and this new tile's damage is halved in comparison to the original cinders, only lasts for 2 rounds, and disappear after being used again. Fresh cinders can't be placed over these new tiles until they burn out.
Flame-walk exists to mitigate the original cinders, but will not effect the grayed-out field hazard tile's damage.
Dark cinders won't receive this treatment because they are evil!!
So basically like Snake's idea, but slightly different?
Alternatively, dev's suggested idea from before. Just make cinder tiles disappear after being used once.
Scarlet Twister is its own special case, and probably should get the airborne treatment like Explosion did to avoid cinder abuse.
Though, any change would be nice -- cinder pushing/pulling is not fun to RP, or to be placed up against.
Re: Possible Cinder Abuse Nerf Idea - Raigen.Convict - 06-19-2019
All you have to do is reduce the damge of cinders per cinder hit from pull/push effects. I've seen people with 40% fire res still get monumentally destroyed by fire damage because of push/pull, and cinders DONT EVEN REDUCE MOMENTUM ON RESIST...
Say a cinder does 100 normally, next cinder pulled over, 50, next, 25, next 13, and keep it there for the rest of that round.