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Rogue needs actual dagger skills and "roguery" - Printable Version

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Rogue needs actual dagger skills and "roguery" - Snake - 02-16-2020

Well, with the site advertisement of Rogue being a class of backstabbing and all of that, why not give it atleast one or three new Dagger skills? On the top of my head, they could have those skills here:

Quote:Dagger Rush
3M
Deals slash physical damage (2 + Rank) times in a row that ignores armor. If all attacks hit without triggering Evasion, you will also inflict or power up Fray on the enemy for 3 rounds. (LV = Rank)

Quote:Shadowstep
1M, 2 round cooldown.
Nimbly run behind (or to the sides of, if not accessible), then attack with a quick, but weak stab that ignores Evasion. The range is equal to your movement.
**Akin to Geist Schritt (Red), you just dart to the tile behind the enemy on-foot, no teleport. This should make it counterplayable by Watchful Eye and also the Rogue susceptible to field effects such as Cinder, so they have to plan right their reckless dash.

Quote:Whirlwind Slash
4M
Spins around, slashing everything around you. Enemies hit will be knocked back two tiles away from you. If they activate a trap, they will also be knocked down.

Quote:Mug
3M, 3 round cooldown
Performs a basic attack on an enemy with your dagger, and automatically uses Steal on them.

Quote:Viper's Kiss
3M, 3 round cooldown
Buff. For 3 rounds, your next basic attack suffers -100 to Critical Hit, but has a chance to inflict or worsen Poison LV (Rank * 10% Scaled GUI), and also increase the duration by an additional 3 rounds. Buff is then consumed on-hit.

Quote:Rose's Kiss
3M, 3 round cooldown
Buff. For 3 rounds, your next basic attack suffers -100 to Critical Hit, but has a chance to inflict or worsen Lingering Damage LV (Rank * 10% Scaled GUI), and also increase the duration by an additional 3 rounds. Buff is then consumed on-hit.

Quote:Gale's Kiss
3M
Buff. For 3 rounds, your next basic attack suffers -100 to Critical Hit, but you will gain two of either Southern, Northern, Eastern or Western Winds at half of their normal duration. Buff is then consumed on-hit.

Quote:False Surrender
4M
Buff. You drop down and beg for mercy. Or do you?
- Inflicts knockdown on self.
- Monsters within 6 range will all have a status-based chance to become pacified from attacking you for 3 rounds.
- After standing up, gain 'Trick Attack', which will be consumed on the next basic attack done against a pacified monster, attempting to execute them at a 25% chance (75% if done from behind). Against players, it increases damage by 5% (+10% if they are inflicted with Blind, +10% if the attack is done from behind, +10% if their HP is under 20%).
- While down, you take the chance to grab a fistful of dirt, allowing you to use Pocket Sand again.

Quote:Flight or Flight
3M
Only once per battle. Buff. Your every fiber focus on chickening out. For 2 rounds you're inflicted with the following:
- Inflicted with fear caused by every opposing enemy.
- Cannot target enemies who inflicted fear on you, and also suffer a -100 Hit penalty against them.
- Gain +1 Movement and 10% Flee chance per debuff inflicted on you. (up to Rank and Rank * 10% respectively).
- Flee costs 3 less momentum to use.


Re: Rogue needs actual dagger skills and "roguery" - Grandpa - 02-16-2020

no percentage increases in damage please, especially not on a base class. some of these sound alright otherwise.

fight or flight sounds like it'll get abused somehow, probably by criminals.

the kiss skills all sound wonky at best.

mug sounds like it would be better suited as the potential skill of bandit weapons.

whirlwind slash is a pretty much guaranteed no effort kd.

honestly, rogue shouldn't have ton of autohits imo. their power kind of comes in with roguery, which is more in line with basic attacking.

Re: Rogue needs actual dagger skills and "roguery" - Autumn - 02-17-2020

Basic attacking should be central part of Rogue/Dagger skills given they are heavily crit damage reliant and not SWA reliant, as we've seen with Fray countless times, an autohit dagger skill just doesn't get satisfying damage.

Mug can work if its got a cooldown attached to it like you mentioned, just make it require steal rank 5, steal's actually not that great straight up to use and is accessible by an accessory of all things, so an upgrade to it for Rogue specifically is much needed.

Dagger Rush can work as an 'ultimate' skill for daggers, here's what I had written for rogues in a stray notepad of mine, very similar except its basic attacks instead: (Think Eclair but for rogue)

Quote:Rogue - Excel Links (Dagger only, 3m, 5 round cooldown, 50/51/52/53/54 FP Cost)

Targets a 3 range horizontal line in front of you, basic attacking all targets 3 times each (Each hit deals only 40% damage, on-hits are disabled), each hit can trigger dagger dance.

And finally I think Dagger Dance should be changed for Rogue in general, its not healthy with on-hits but it really sucks without them, I think buffing the damage from 20% to 30% + Ignores armor would be very good for it, but in exchange make it reduce on-hit effect damage by the same amount (70%) so that on-hit builds don't get nutso with it.

A lot of the things I do agree with in this thread, Rogue doesn't feel like a dagger class, it feels like a mix-mash of utility that isn't even that good, and whatever dagger synergy it does have is just not good, making it kind of the worst base class in the game actually.

Re: Rogue needs actual dagger skills and "roguery" - Slydria - 02-17-2020

Well... I certainly agree that Rogue could use new skills, especially for Daggers. I'll just slide in some more ideas:

Fluttering Hummingbird
Dagger Skill. 2 Round Cooldown. Perform two quick attacks on a target within 1 Range, these attacks deal only a portion of normal damage (based on Rank) but ignore Armor.

If you have two Daggers equipped, you will perform two additional Armor-ignoring attacks using your off-hand Dagger but these attacks will deal half of the listed damage.

The damage from On Hit effects (such as from Weapons, Element Augment, etc.) are halved during this skill.

Example Scaling: Damage: 40%/45%/50%/55%/60%

Flying Merganser
Dagger Skill. Swoop down behind the target before striking them from behind and returning. This moves behind a target within tiles based on Rank and performs a basic attack with a bonus to Hit before returning to your original location. This cannot be used if Immobilized or if there is no available space behind the target.

Example Scaling: Range: 4/5/6, Hit: +10/+15/+20

Cut and Run
Dagger Skill. Targets an enemy within 1 Range, performing a basic attack that deals bonus damage and then backs away from them a number of tiles based on Rank. This cannot be used if Immobilized.

Example Scaling: Move Back: 3/4/5 Tiles, Bonus Damage: +5/+10/+15

Crooked Shot
Gun Skill. Targets an enemy within Weapon Range, performing a basic attack that has an increased Critical Chance and Critical Damage (based on Rank). If this attack hits, it causes Lingering Pierce Damage (LV based on Rank) for 3 Rounds. The LV of the Lingering Damage is doubled if you attack them from behind.

Example Scaling: Critical Chance and Damage: +5%/+10%/+15%/+20%, Lingering Damage: 10/15/20/25

Trapshooting
Gun Skill. Targets a placed trap, shooting at it to activate it immediately while increasing the damage it deals based on Scaled Weapon Attack.

Example Scaling: Damage: 110%/120%/130% SWA


Re: Rogue needs actual dagger skills and "roguery" - Senna - 02-17-2020

Some of the skills suggested, I'd say should split between three rogue classes; Void Assassin, Spell Thief and base Rogue class.

It would be nice to have some skills like this among the classes since Rogue's basic attack crippling weaknesses is the lack of a dashing skill, decent autohits since dagger scaling aren't that big or a way to basic attack check that doesn't leave them in line of fire. (Especially if they're running Mirage Scale. It's a doom fight)

Re: Rogue needs actual dagger skills and "roguery" - WaifuApple - 02-20-2020

I don't think any new dagger skills should be split between the other classes, too. I think there's a very deep lack of stuff for base rogue to use for daggers and I think every bit of attention could go to that, rather than adding more to classes that already have enough, instead of it especially considering they can basically get it anyway because it's their base.

I do quite like Sly's ideas.

Re: Rogue needs actual dagger skills and "roguery" - Senna - 02-20-2020

I'm not too sure about that. I've played all rogue classes and I can safely say, for dagger skills, rogue lacks alot, ST has only one good dagger gimmick, the others are just there and VA dagger skills are very underwhelming, only really good basic attack wise. Alot of skills were suggested here so, it's part of the reason why I suggest them split between each.

Re: Rogue needs actual dagger skills and "roguery" - WaifuApple - 02-20-2020

Not all skills here would be accepted, if any. If the ones that did were put into rogue, the other classes would get access to them anyway. These are more tailored towards being basic rogue stuff. If we were to get more / better stuff for the other classes, I'd want them to be suggested with those classes in mind, to see what would come of it.

Re: Rogue needs actual dagger skills and "roguery" - Snake - 02-27-2020

They're not a competitive basic class, as that IC training of yours proved, Appo. I was naked through all of the game, taking Eclairs to the face every nth round without much to do but try to poke them in the back.

No, I don't want all those skills to be added at once. What I truly want is atleast one or another that catches Dev's eyes to be. Preferably an auto-hit with additional effects or more Crowd Control options, since they lack that.

Re: Rogue needs actual dagger skills and "roguery" - Shujin - 03-09-2020

While I also agree with rouges needing a bit more dagger stuff, I would like to see not ONLY autohits. Its one of the classes that benefits alot on basic attacking, so it would be feel like a wasted opportunity not add something to capitalize on that, and maybe make them less reliant on maining Duellist for momentum costs.

But Slys skills certainly covers that Avenue plenty. Though maybe a 2M basic attack with reduced strength would be nice too, for those non-duelist rouges. (Encouragign dual daggering is also cool)