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Feedback and Suggested Changes to Initiative - Printable Version

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Feedback and Suggested Changes to Initiative - Kameron8 - 05-30-2020

Note: This is extremely long, a TL;DR can be found at the bottom if you don't have that kind of time.

The new round-robin initiative system set out to eliminate gimmicky combinations revolving around teammates taking turns one after another before an enemy can react. In this category, it has unquestionably succeeded.

However, I feel as though the current system is too rigid in forcing people to take turns. In doing so, adding new creatures or players to the combat -- or K.O.ing a player/creature -- has implications on turn order that can feel both counterintuitive and unpleasant alike. Given enough understanding of the system, players can (and will, eventually) specifically avoid/prioritize downing specific enemies at times, based on what the net impact will be on the next turn's initiative order.

To explain what I mean, I've pulled a test 3v3 PvP battle from a different thread and tracked the initiative order of each round:

Teams:

Team 1: Uniformed Karatynn, Tal Zarok, Audacious Artificer
Team 2: Hoodie Wearing Leporidae, Allaina Rakuzaki, Quiet Armored Man

Beginning of Combat Initiative Order:
  1. Tal Zarok
  2. Hoodie Wearing Leporidae
  3. Uniformed Karatynn
  4. Allaina Rakuzaki
  5. Audacious Artificer
  6. Quiet Armored Man

This can be seen in the screenshot below:

[Image: 6Lmqiqo.png]

Things begin to get problematic once players start dying. To highlight this, the following is the turn order once the 2nd fastest player, the Hoodie Wearing Leporidae, was reduced to 0 Hit Points and the turn rolled over:

Post-Death 2v3 Initiative Order:

  1. Tal Zarok
  2. Allaina Rakuzaki
  3. Uniformed Karatynn
  4. Quiet Armored Man
  5. Audacious Artificer

This is shown in the screenshot below:

[Image: k4DL8L6.png]

Why this matters: Compare the two turn orders from the turn before, and the turn after the Hoodie Wearing Leporidae was killed. Note that, because the game has cycled the initiatives upward, the following has just taken place:
  • Allaina Rakuzaki will end up having two full turns before the Uniformed Karatynn receives his next turn.
  • Quiet Armored Man will end up having two full turns before the Audacious Artificer receives his next turn.

Unless teammates can offset what's happening in some regard (which is not always possible, in cases such as Die Hard), players will find themselves suddenly being pseudo-double turned by one specific player on the enemy team. I don't need to provide examples to emphasize how incredibly quickly a full additional turn can become lethal -- it was one of the main reasons this change was implemented to begin with.

To further exemplify this quirk of the system at play, we can continue to look at the ensuing test fight. With unbalanced teams, the system once more shifts the turn order to make sure turns are being taken up until the very end of the round. This leaves us with a new turn, and new initiative orders:

2nd Round of Post-Death 2v3 Initiative Order:

  1. Allaina Rakuzaki
  2. Tal Zarok
  3. Quiet Armored Man
  4. Uniformed Karatynn
  5. Audacious Artificer

Compare this with the last turn, and make note of the fact that:
  • Allaina Rakuzaki will take a 2nd consecutive turn before Tal Zarok gets one.
  • Quiet Armored Man will take a 2nd consecutive turn before Uniformed Karatynn gets one.

Thus far, Allaina Rakuzaki is thrilled that her teammate was killed off -- she's gotten two turns in a row where she can hammer random people twice before they can act. This mess of a back and forth once more shifts once the Hoodie Wearing Leporidae Die Hards. Below is the initiative that results from the now 1 HP player re-entering the turn order:

Die Hard - 3v3 Initiative Order:

  1. Hoodie Wearing Leporidae
  2. Tal Zarok
  3. Allaina Rakuzaki
  4. Uniformed Karatynn
  5. Quiet Armored Man
  6. Audacious Artificer

This is shown in the screenshot below, with the recently dead player taking the first action of the turn:

[Image: ORMGZJ5.png]

All at once, we have:
  • The 1 hp, 4 Momentum player going first.
  • Tal Zarok taking two turns in a row, before Allaina Rakuzaki can take one.
  • Uniformed Karatynn taking two turns in a row, before Quiet Armored Man can take one.



In this circumstance, it's very unlikely that the 1 health, recently revived player will be in a position to offset the next enemy's turn. Depending on who's positioned where, the fight becomes a circus of ''Will this player go twice before me if I finish off the enemy? Will die hard potentially screw me over? Should I leave that guy at 1 health so our healer isn't hit twice by the Void Assassin before he can act?"

My Suggestion:
My suggestion is that we use the new turn order system at the beginning of combat, then only allow turn orders to shift in the event that a player uses Skip. Units that enter into combat midway through the battle (i.e. Summoned Youkai, Engineer bots) will take their turns all at once, directly after or before their creator. The only other instance where the turns would shift would be when a new player joins a fight late.

To better explain this suggestion, I'll use the same exact fight outlined above, but state the turn orders as though they were following the system with the changes I'm asking for. The fight begins the same:

Teams:

Team 1: Uniformed Karatynn, Tal Zarok, Audacious Artificer
Team 2: Hoodie Wearing Leporidae, Allaina Rakuzaki, Quiet Armored Man

Beginning of Combat Initiative Order:
  1. Tal Zarok
  2. Hoodie Wearing Leporidae
  3. Uniformed Karatynn
  4. Allaina Rakuzaki
  5. Audacious Artificer
  6. Quiet Armored Man

Just like last time, the Hoodie Wearing Leporidae is killed. Instead of spinning the losing team up a tier in initiative, we instead keep everyone exactly where they were:

Post-Death 2v3 Initiative Order:
  1. Tal Zarok
  2. [strike]Hoodie Wearing Leporidae[/strike]
  3. Uniformed Karatynn
  4. Allaina Rakuzaki
  5. Audacious Artificer
  6. Quiet Armored Man

The next turn, this will remain the exact same. Once the Hoodie Wearing Leporidae Die Hards, we don't bring the circus back into town -- we merely restore the revived back into the turn where she belongs:

Post-Die Hard Initiative Order:
  1. Tal Zarok
  2. Hoodie Wearing Leporidae
  3. Uniformed Karatynn
  4. Allaina Rakuzaki
  5. Audacious Artificer
  6. Quiet Armored Man

If done in this way, the only way a team could begin collecting their teammates for a 2, 3, or 4 member combination of turns is through killing off most the enemy team first. This, of course, is much harder to do since they can't use a 2, 3, or 4 member combination of turns at the start to accomplish this feat.

Due to the nature of how many things affect turns in this game, there's a very good chance I'm missing edge cases with my suggested revision. However, since I don't see any, I'll conclude with recommending we change the system so that it doesn't dynamically rotate players around based on deaths, revives, summons, and other mid-fight occurrences.

TL;DR:
The current system allows for combatants to potentially take two turns before certain other combatants can take one, depending on enemy death, summons, or resurrection. I recommend that the round-robin turn order be held mostly static once the fight begins, to avoid these shifts.

Re: Feedback and Suggested Changes to Initiative - Neus - 05-30-2020

Assuming I am understanding your suggestion correctly this would unfortunately lead to Skip being able to double turn again. It is also not really accounting for units that get revived mid-round via things like Second Chance, which would lead to one party being able to take both the Second Chance user's turn and then the revived person's turn in succession.

I also don't think that having a summoner and all of their summons go successively is a good idea either. It can definitely feel very unfair when the other team has party members waiting for their turn, that the summoner gets to act with 2-3 units before they can do anything, potentially allowing them to down a party member before they can react. I also feel that being able to take multiple turns in a row when your party member gets KO'd would lead to similar feelings and that the advantage of being able to have your team act twice is not exactly a necessity when you have the advantage of being up a member anyway.

Re: Feedback and Suggested Changes to Initiative - Kameron8 - 05-30-2020

Neus post_id=39908 time=1590803838 user_id=2 Wrote:Assuming I am understanding your suggestion correctly this would unfortunately lead to Skip being able to double turn again.

Unless I'm misunderstanding the system, I don't believe Skip offers a double turn with my suggested change. To jump straight to example, taking the example team I've been using for this post:

Team 1: Uniformed Karatynn, Tal Zarok, Audacious Artificer
Team 2: Hoodie Wearing Leporidae, Allaina Rakuzaki, Quiet Armored Man

  1. Tal Zarok
  2. Hoodie Wearing Leporidae
  3. Uniformed Karatynn
  4. Allaina Rakuzaki
  5. Audacious Artificer
  6. Quiet Armored Man

If Tal Zarok begins the round by skipping, he's set to the bottom of his team's initiative order. As a result, the new turn order becomes:

  1. Hoodie Wearing Leporidae
  2. Uniformed Karatynn
  3. Allaina Rakuzaki
  4. Audacious Artificer
  5. Quiet Armored Man
  6. Tal Zarok

Because Tal Zarok's initiative wouldn't be restored at any point after Skipping, he would now just go last unless someone else used Skip. Could you explain where the double turn happens, or what part of Skip's interaction on Initiative I'm misunderstanding?

Neus post_id=39908 time=1590803838 user_id=2 Wrote:It is also not really accounting for units that get revived mid-round via things like Second Chance, which would lead to one party being able to take both the Second Chance user's turn and then the revived person's turn in succession.

In the event the revived player is higher on the turn order than the one reviving them, this would allow for them to get up, take a turn, and then possibly take another turn immediately after if they're the fastest player on the order. However, a double turn from someone with Hard Dying, at the expense of their healer's Momentum, on its face seems less abusive than two full, uninterrupted 7 momentum turns on demand. Coordinating around gimmicks requiring you to first die seems...Unreliable.

Neus post_id=39908 time=1590803838 user_id=2 Wrote:I also don't think that having a summoner and all of their summons go successively is a good idea either. It can definitely feel very unfair when the other team has party members waiting for their turn, that the summoner gets to act with 2-3 units before they can do anything, potentially allowing them to down a party member before they can react. I also feel that being able to take multiple turns in a row when your party member gets KO'd would lead to similar feelings and that the advantage of being able to have your team act twice is not exactly a necessity when you have the advantage of being up a member anyway.

I personally would rather have a full round to handle 3 Summons who go simultaneously than get hit by the first Summon who claims the top initiative spot, then watch all of the Summoner's player allies get demoted to the very, very bottom of the turn order because they're all slower than the Youkai. This results in the Summoner's whole team going at the exact same time, which is far more detrimental than the Youkai themselves operating together.

I don't disagree that gradually seizing the initiative by defeating enemies is powerful, but I don't think it's less preferable than the dynamic turn swaps that ultimately result in any left over members of the larger-quantity team taking all their turns at the very end, all at once, anyway. In a 2 vs 4 situation, there's always going to be members of the 4 taking turns after their ally's.

Re: Feedback and Suggested Changes to Initiative - Autumn - 05-30-2020

If the turn system works like its acting that players have a set position in the turn order (Or dead players are 'holding' spots still) then I'm fine with that, effectively it plays out the same way but with the benefits Kameron mentioned and skip won't make anyone double turn so long as the alternating turn order is still in effect (I assume at the very least, this is how it'd work.)

As for youkai, I think its inherently unfair that youkai have always worked off of higher CEL initiative values than players due to the necessity of APT in most builds, having them act in unison with a summoner (Preferably BEFORE the summoner's turn to allow Bonder's interactions.) would be much preferable in my opinion, as it makes it so that summoners and papilions don't accidentally shaft themselves for ever summoning something with a higher initiative value than them ever.

This would also give a lot more value to fast summoners, as they've been always sort of stuck into tanky builds to allow youkai to act before them, its not like youkai have specific interactions that avoid counterplay completely save for Shift Dimension, which has a cooldown attached.

Re: Feedback and Suggested Changes to Initiative - Neus - 05-30-2020

Kameron8 post_id=39909 time=1590805413 user_id=215 Wrote:Because Tal Zarok's initiative wouldn't be restored at any point after Skipping, he would now just go last unless someone else used Skip. Could you explain where the double turn happens, or what part of Skip's interaction on Initiative I'm misunderstanding?

What happens when two members of the same team skip? What happens when a team that has 3 members VS a team of 2 members has multiple members skip? The way the suggestion is framed it means that now those members are permanently at the bottom of the list and going one after another.

The suggestion in general doesn't really feel realistic because it doesn't account for a lot of factors like the above, and in some cases goes against the reason the change was made in the first place. Not only would this be a nightmare to program, I also don't feel like it would lead to anything positive. Skip is already something I debate removing frequently because of how much it has been abused in the past - readding another gamey abuse case is not something I would like to do. The 'youkai going all at the same time as the summoner' also feels like just a preference - I could easily see, if it were changed, someone making a complaint that it's not fair that a Summoner can take X turns in a row when they have party members waiting.

I would also argue that, even if the Summoner is at risk of being targeted by the same unit before their next turn if they summon a Youkai faster than themselves, one of three things;

1) You can make a build with higher CEL so that it doesn't happen.
2) Your Youkai is still acting before the opponent, meaning they can take action that will help protect or disrupt the opponent (for example, Ascended Seiryuu pulling them away with Hunter Wind,.
3) You can still utilize On My Mark to move before them regardless of your CEL.

Beyond that, Summoner is one of those classes where they are very vulnerable before setting up.

The only thing I can kind of agree with are two things;

1) It might be better that the disadvantaged Die Hard character is treated as having 0 initiative the turn they get up so that fast Die Hards do not push their healthier team members who can help them down the turn list.
2) It might be better for summoned units, or at least Youkai, to be treated as having 0 initiative, so that faster ones do not push down the generally more dangerous player characters in the event of uneven teams (which Summoners can cause quite easily).

#2 I am a little shakey on because it could be bad QoL for Summoners.

In any event, the only thing I'm really willing to adjust is the initiative values for certain cases. I do not really want to make the new turn system more confusing with odd exceptions and 'hard' locking the initiative list leading to people asking 'Why am I last? I only skipped last turn, not this turn.' and 'Why did this team just beat one of our members and move again instead of our team getting a turn?'.

Not that I am trying to dismiss anyones' feedback on the changes, I am simply stating that I have a difference of opinion on a few things.

Re: Feedback and Suggested Changes to Initiative - Kameron8 - 05-30-2020

Neus post_id=39917 time=1590834230 user_id=2 Wrote:Not that I am trying to dismiss anyones' feedback on the changes, I am simply stating that I have a difference of opinion on a few things.

Fair enough, I think I've put forth what I feel are pain points of the new system as comprehensively as I could. Whether or not you agree with some, none, or all of it, getting detailed input in response to this large of a post is much appreciated. If Summoned Units and Die Hard are changed at all, it would at least be possible to reliably predict the incoming turn order shifts (which I still disagree with the notion they aren't an issue) instead of hoping for the best.

I think it's worth it, however, to point out a few final details, just for clarity's sake:

Neus post_id=39917 time=1590834230 user_id=2 Wrote:I would also argue that, even if the Summoner is at risk of being targeted by the same unit before their next turn if they summon a Youkai faster than themselves, one of three things;

1) You can make a build with higher CEL so that it doesn't happen.
2) Your Youkai is still acting before the opponent, meaning they can take action that will help protect or disrupt the opponent (for example, Ascended Seiryuu pulling them away with Hunter Wind,.
3) You can still utilize On My Mark to move before them regardless of your CEL.

1) In a lot of cases, this doesn't prevent the pseudo-double turn from occurring. The easiest example is in a 1 vs 1, if you're faster than the enemy. Instead of You -> Enemy -> You -> Enemy, the Youkai causes the turn order to shift to You (Summon a creature) -> Enemy -> End of Round -> You/Youkai -> Enemy -> Youkai/You -> End of Round -> Enemy. Whether or not you're faster than your own Youkai, you will both get pseudo-double turned within one to two rounds.
2) A very, very small number of Youkai can disrupt to a meaningful degree in that manner.
3) This does not prevent the situation from always occurring, and the same exact results will occur from the example given in #1.

Re: Feedback and Suggested Changes to Initiative - Autumn - 05-30-2020

Neus post_id=39917 time=1590834230 user_id=2 Wrote:
Kameron8 post_id=39909 time=1590805413 user_id=215 Wrote:Because Tal Zarok's initiative wouldn't be restored at any point after Skipping, he would now just go last unless someone else used Skip. Could you explain where the double turn happens, or what part of Skip's interaction on Initiative I'm misunderstanding?

The 'youkai going all at the same time as the summoner' also feels like just a preference - I could easily see, if it were changed, someone making a complaint that it's not fair that a Summoner can take X turns in a row when they have party members waiting.

I agree that it could be seen in a negative light, however for the summoner in question right now, they are actively causing shenanigans in a fight that could be seen as almost unpredictable, you have to be incredibly aware to actively track how much a summon will mess up the turn order, and whether it'll be in your favor or not, considering who on your team will be double turning who as soon as the youkai is summoned. Since youkai do not take turns normally until the next round this can be planned around and gamed in a grimy way that would potentially screw the summoner over, even though you point it out later, I want to exactly detail this in a 1v1:

1) Purple Player takes an action and then summons a youkai, blue player takes their actions and then it goes to purple the next round as it should.

2) Purple Player takes their turn, Blue Player takes their turn, then Purple Youkai takes their turn, due to the new turn system logically the Blue Player will now move first on the next round, causing Purple Player to act twice in a row, however the Blue Player will get 2 of their turns before the purple player takes their next action.

3) Because of how very few youkai are able to actually disrupt (and only one of them in a meaningful way via 5 tile pull) it is incredibly unlikely that the youkai's strength will make up for the fact that the blue player had 14 momentum's worth of actions before they did, this could lead to seriously match ending combos like invocations and duelist combos, verglas combos etc. with no meaningful reaction.

This makes it so that treating youkai as a player spot in the new turn order is incredibly volatile to the summoner, and not to the enemy, and even might be counterintuitive the point of the new system as the Youkai and Summoner will always be moving after one another anyways in this kind of scenario, perhaps a different point could be made as each team gains more and more members equally.

The next three points are tackled by the above post in a way that I agree with and further support my points so I'll move beyond that.


Quote:The only thing I can kind of agree with are two things;

1) It might be better that the disadvantaged Die Hard character is treated as having 0 initiative the turn they get up so that fast Die Hards do not push their healthier team members who can help them down the turn list.
2) It might be better for summoned units, or at least Youkai, to be treated as having 0 initiative, so that faster ones do not push down the generally more dangerous player characters in the event of uneven teams (which Summoners can cause quite easily).

#2 I am a little shakey on because it could be bad QoL for Summoners.

#1 I agree with there, a die hard character should have 0 initiative likely so that team members do not get double turned by certain members on the enemy team, a die harded character is practically useless upon initially getting up unless they're specifically able to do something meaningful with 4m left. So they will not be able to assist team members suddenly finding themselves in a scuffed situation.

#2 is an incredibly dangerous thing to have, it would cause a lot of summons to suddenly fade out of obscurity because they're not tanky enough to move at the turn order, sometimes Izabe only gets 1 turn cause it has sub-200 health.


To summarize here I'm looking to make a point about summoners summoning and getting potentially screwed for it.

At the very least I am of the opinion that youkai need to be separated entirely from players in the new turn system somehow, after reading through a bunch of bonder's skills it seems like a majority of them still function even if the summoner moves before their youkai does, and gives time to react to the potential of momentum shifts like Shift Dimension or Chain Unsummon.

I want to just make it clear that I'm changing my opinion on that, if youkai were tethered to the player they should instead move AFTER the player does, this would cause all current youkai interactions to have a react-able clause to them from the enemy team.

My TL;DR:
It would be incredibly more healthy for the summoner, their teammates and the enemy team if youkai/summons were to move in an entirely separate block from players themselves.

Though I understand programming limitations could be an issue here too, I'm not incredibly keen on requesting what is impossible/tedious to implement, you would know leagues more than I do when it comes to that so I'm wholly unaware of what is completely possible or not.

I think ultimately this new turn system is for the better, but it is definitely not without jank, and currently summoners control that jank, for better or worse.

Re: Feedback and Suggested Changes to Initiative - Hanzo - 06-01-2020

This experimental system is blatantly unfair. Likewise, it buffs tanks significantly, who are already stronger than dodge builds. You are going to much more find yourself in a situation where two quick characters want to team up, only to be heavily punished for it - rather than people making a gimmicky team composition. People who invest time into organising and optimising their team composition will have more success in teamfights either way.