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Summoner Tweaks - Jay - 02-03-2015
Tweak One: Individual sync-minds to add more specialization (and balance).
Sync-Mind (Fairy) - Required: The Contract Rank 1, Affinity: Fairy Rank 5
An advanced summoning method called 'Evoking', whereby a Youkai is only partially summoned, and its powers are channeled through the Summoner.
This allows the Summoner to utilize some of the Fairy Youkai's power themself. (You do not gain any benefits while the Youkai's HP is 0.)
Rank 1: Allows you to use the Youkai's Evoker-Active skill.
Rank 2: Allows you to use the Youkai's Evoker-Passive skill.
Sync-Mind (Plant) - Required: The Contract Rank 1, Affinity: Plant Rank 5
An advanced summoning method called 'Evoking', whereby a Youkai is only partially summoned, and its powers are channeled through the Summoner.
This allows the Summoner to utilize some of the Plant Youkai's power themself. (You do not gain any benefits while the Youkai's HP is 0.)
Rank 1: Allows you to use the Youkai's Evoker-Active skill.
Rank 2: Allows you to use the Youkai's Evoker-Passive skill.
Sync-Mind (Beast) - Required: The Contract Rank 1, Affinity: Beast Rank 5
An advanced summoning method called 'Evoking', whereby a Youkai is only partially summoned, and its powers are channeled through the Summoner.
This allows the Summoner to utilize some of the Beast Youkai's power themself. (You do not gain any benefits while the Youkai's HP is 0.)
Rank 1: Allows you to use the Youkai's Evoker-Active skill.
Rank 2: Allows you to use the Youkai's Evoker-Passive skill.
Sync-Mind (Avian) - Required: The Contract Rank 1, Affinity: Avian Rank 5
An advanced summoning method called 'Evoking', whereby a Youkai is only partially summoned, and its powers are channeled through the Summoner.
This allows the Summoner to utilize some of the Avian Youkai's power themself. (You do not gain any benefits while the Youkai's HP is 0.)
Rank 1: Allows you to use the Youkai's Evoker-Active skill.
Rank 2: Allows you to use the Youkai's Evoker-Passive skill.
Sync-Mind (Mystic) - Required: The Contract Rank 1, Affinity: Mystic Rank 5
An advanced summoning method called 'Evoking', whereby a Youkai is only partially summoned, and its powers are channeled through the Summoner.
This allows the Summoner to utilize some of the Mystic Youkai's power themself. (You do not gain any benefits while the Youkai's HP is 0.)
Rank 1: Allows you to use the Youkai's Evoker-Active skill.
Rank 2: Allows you to use the Youkai's Evoker-Passive skill.
Sync-Mind (Night) - Required: The Contract Rank 1, Affinity: Night Rank 5
An advanced summoning method called 'Evoking', whereby a Youkai is only partially summoned, and its powers are channeled through the Summoner.
This allows the Summoner to utilize some of the Night Youkai's power themself. (You do not gain any benefits while the Youkai's HP is 0.)
Rank 1: Allows you to use the Youkai's Evoker-Active skill.
Rank 2: Allows you to use the Youkai's Evoker-Passive skill.
Sync-Mind (Dragon) - Required: The Contract Rank 1, Affinity: Dragon Rank 5
An advanced summoning method called 'Evoking', whereby a Youkai is only partially summoned, and its powers are channeled through the Summoner.
This allows the Summoner to utilize some of the Dragon Youkai's power themself. (You do not gain any benefits while the Youkai's HP is 0.)
Rank 1: Allows you to use the Youkai's Evoker-Active skill.
Rank 2: Allows you to use the Youkai's Evoker-Passive skill.
Reasoning: As it currently stands, one of the most staggering problems with this class involves its excessive diversity (touching on most, if not all elements) and utility (the amount of status effects to choose from). For 2 SP you could suddenly specialize in everything the summoner class has to offer without any real drawback. Recent news regarding Dev's willingless to allow people to keep youkai and their effects past the contract slots only adds to this problem. It provides the possibility of having every single youkai that can provide any sort of tangible benefit. You can pick and choose universal benefits for simply having a youkai in your slot. This inadvertently covers future hassle and designates which affinity deserves more balancing.
I don't think I'm the only one who believes summoners are capable of too much currently and synergizes too well with every single class.
Tweak Two: Moving some youkai spells to the magic tab.
This proposition steers toward WIL based spells or ones that explicitly deal magic damage. To be somewhat fair, if the user chooses to install a youkai, it'd be reasonable to assume they can manually use a youkai spell even if they're 'silenced'.
Reasoning: Currently, there are only two youkai spells inside the magic tab. This is a bit absurd as it gives WIL based characters an avenue of spells based around that stat, which cannot be negated through silence. This is a major issue with a number of overwhelming spells such as Apus' Apodis. It's safe to say these transitions will not provide these spells with tome bonuses. And after going through all of these skills, around 90%(?) of the youkai skills revolve around WIL. For those that claim this will make summoners useless in the fray, they should be summoning if the situation calls for it.
Re: Summoner Tweaks - Rendar - 02-03-2015
Assuming sync mind changes get made and you have 35-9 Skill points left thats 26 SP to allocate, and there are 7 affinities. If one wanted to, they .could. nab 4 affinities and 3 sync minds. Which is still pretty good and, to be honest, doesn't really negate the issue that much. because most people just choose BEAST, MYSTIC, DRAGON, NIGHT so maybe sync mind ranks need to be increased some. < Looking at you people who take Night only for dat drowned woman >.
I think another issue with Youkai is the fact that you can still use their skills even when they're summoned. Which is kind of silly if you ask me due to the fact that they're already there. You can't 'partially summon' them for the evocation. I'd suggest that most of their 'skills' are in the spell tab for you. If you have the youkai summoned, however, or if it's at 0 HP, you cannot use it's skills etc.
There is also the fact that some youkai have a skill that scales off of a stat that they just don't get much of. Apus' Apodis scales off of WIL+Apus level, but at most it can get a 25% WIL growth with affinity. Why would a youkai have something like this? Does it improve their survivability at all? Not really.
Byakko is a good example of a non-WIL scaling attack. It scales off of STR and it's level, deals a good chunk of damage alongside it too.
Chun's Fire Jet, isn't. He can get 45% WIL growth, doesn't mean that fire jet of his isn't going to do that much unless it's in the hands of a summoner who loves their 70+ WIL that can use it.
Cresyr from Snow Crow... yet another example of Bird's having WIL scaling attacks for no explainable reason whenever their WIL growth is garbage.
Maybe if you associated each 'youkai' type to a certain stat, it'd help promote people wanting to use those types of youkai by rebalancing numerous amounts of the skills so we don't have 90% of their skills scaling off of WIL with no reason for the youkai to ever use it themself.
Re: Summoner Tweaks - Neus - 02-03-2015
"[url=http://www.neus-projects.net/viewtopic.php?p=4270#p4270 Wrote:Rendar » Tue Feb 03, 2015 9:20 pm[/url]"]that you can still use their skills even when they're summoned. Which is kind of silly if you ask me due to the fact that they're already there. You can't 'partially summon' them for the evocation. I'd suggest that most of their 'skills' are in the spell tab for you. If you have the youkai summoned, however, or if it's at 0 HP, you cannot use it's skills etc.
What? You can't use summoned Youkai's evoke skills if they're summoned. You also can't use the skills if they're at 0 HP. Have you ever played a summoner?
Re: Summoner Tweaks - Rendar - 02-03-2015
I was under the impression that you could use a summon's skill if it was summoned. Also I know you can't use their skills if they're KO'd. Yes I have played a summoner, if only for "I CAN SPAM APODIS AT NIGHT FOR 300 DAMAGE OR MORE ON THIS UMBRAL". Never bothered to actually level the buggers up. I was adding a clause for "You can't use their skills if it's at 0 HP or if this new thing is put in."
Re: Summoner Tweaks - Ryu-Kazuki - 02-04-2015
I don't think this is a great change to Summoners at all. 7 SP just to use skills of youkai isn't really good, considering the tradeoff for the skills is that their FP costs get pretty high the higher the youkai get (regardless of damage, it's still very costly), you can't use it if your youkai is at 0 HP, and you can't use it if the youkai is summoned. Summoner already has a hard time with the new FP upkeep for youkai, I don't see why taking away their synchronization with their youkai and offensive abilities is necessary.
Class synergy is good, what's the problem? I honestly don't see how you can argue "too much class synergy".
Also, for the record.
Quote:Ghost Sea
Passive
Target: N/A
Property belonging to those who have died at sea. Grants immunity to Burn status. User is treated as Ghost-race in addition to all other racial types.
For such a great (and that's with loads of sarcasm) passive, it has a pretty nasty drawback, especially against people who actually use Holy weapons. Installing her is just as bad for that purpose, and how it also treats you as installed for more punishment from Judgement Blade.
Summoners are an iffy subject, and before any changes happen to them, we should see what their next promotion provides. Right now the class is already a problem on its own just to use.
Re: Summoner Tweaks - Jay - 02-04-2015
Quote:I don't think this is a great change to Summoners at all. 7 SP just to use skills of youkai isn't really good, considering the tradeoff for the skills is that their FP costs get pretty high the higher the youkai get (regardless of damage, it's still very costly), you can't use it if your youkai is at 0 HP, and you can't use it if the youkai is summoned.
It costs 7 SP for any other class to have around 1-2 decent skills. That 7 FP just gave you a long line of passive and active abilities (if you so chose) from multiple youkai. Lets not forget that Dev still plans to add even more to the plethora. The steep FP requirement enforces the fact that you should be summoning and be willing to 'trade-off' (for instance) WIL+Youkai level damage, including a status effect for that chunk of FP. There are so many FP drainers and sustains around, that there's not much to be concerned about.
Quote: For such a great (and that's with loads of sarcasm) passive, it has a pretty nasty drawback, especially against people who actually use Holy weapons. Installing her is just as bad for that purpose, and how it also treats you as installed for more punishment from Judgement Blade.
Lets not degrade this back and forth with sarcasm, even if you think it will aid your point. We can probably both agree that people using holy weapons is a rarity, as you just referred to 'people who actually use' it. You don't like DW and her effects? Choose another Night Youkai to install, or another affinity. That's what specialization and the apples offer. If DW was the only youkai around and one can swap holy weapons in battle, I'd honestly consider your side. I'm also lost as to why you think 25% resistance to blunt, physical, and pierce types is ('with loads of sarcasm') bad.
Quote:Summoners are an iffy subject, and before any changes happen to them, we should see what their next promotion provides. Right now the class is already a problem on its own just to use.
It's only as iffy as the community makes it. Some people can't always hide behind the fact it has glaring problems. This suggestion, as I mentioned earlier, makes future additions less of a hassle and more reasonable. Rather than 2 SPs giving someone so much, they have to work toward what they want like everyone else. These suggestions, especially the first, aims to make the next promotion more reasonable.
Re: Summoner Tweaks - Ryu-Kazuki - 02-04-2015
Total SP for decent skills depends on your class. Offensive skills generally cost around 5 SP.
You can't say Summoners should only be about summoning the youkai, (despite their name, yeah), because when you think about it, anyone with a lv 60 youkai would pay a 17 FP upkeep just to keep them out, and that makes the skills with heavy FP requirements, just like any other skill in a class, except that it requires your youkai to be with you, and alive. Now imagine being that LE'd guy who's lower level then their youkai, has to hextuple the summoning cost, which goes from 5 to 30, and maintain a 17 FP upkeep just to have the youkai out. Summoners already only get two Offensive skills on their own, and one of them doesn't even do damage.
Even if there aren't a lot of youkai right now, why should people focus on sticking with certain categories of youkai? Maybe they want only one from this section, but none of the others? I myself don't even use Beast youkai at all. But that's just an example of how people like to choose what kind of youkai they pick.
Also, I was talking about DW's Evoke-Passive, not her Install ability. They are two entirely different things, and we're talking about Evoke-Passives at the moment, at least, that's what I was talking about.
I, on the other hand, see the FP management (don't misunderstand, FP upkeep is fine, but it gets really taxing later on, that is an entirely different topic though), as more of a problem than "too much synergy and too many skills". I don't honestly see anywhere in the game where it says, "you should be summoning your youkai or you are stupid". If people want to do nothing but use evoke skills, let them, that's a different playstyle, and it may be suited for them.
You also have to consider that youkai slots are solely focused on FAI. If you choose to opt out of FAI (hey maybe someone wants to), then you don't get many youkai to play around with. And as for the lack of youkai, who knows when more will be added? Weeks? Months? Years? I'd rather start having more youkai before I limit what youkai I can and can't use properly.
As for what the next promotion is, we don't even know. Summoners have a broad range of tactics to their advantage because they're solely focused on the youkai. We may have a promotion that focuses on only having a single youkai contracted. Here's the problem. With that single youkai out, your evoke skills are entirely useless.
Summoners have too many of their own personal problems for people who are anti-summoner (not saying you are) to start going "Summoner OP, plz nerf" (when they're not even OP in the slightest, especially since it costs an arm and a leg to have more than one youkai out during a turn, and the initial turn they're summoned and sit there doing nothing).
Lack of youkai.
Lack of versatility with youkai.
Lack of offensive abilities (or maybe that's why they can use Evoke-Actives).
Hefty FP costs for both Upkeep and Evoking.
Not enough synergy with the youkai themselves, (all you have is Encourage, Astral Aegis, and Install).
Youkai being too much of a pain in the ass to level up.
The list goes on.
Re: Summoner Tweaks - Rendar - 02-04-2015
"[url=http://neus-projects.net/viewtopic.php?p=4290#p4290 Wrote:Ryu-Kazuki » Tue Feb 03, 2015 9:38 pm[/url]"]Total SP for decent skills depends on your class. Offensive skills generally cost around 5 SP.
You can't say Summoners should only be about summoning the youkai, (despite their name, yeah), because when you think about it, anyone with a lv 60 youkai would pay a 17 FP upkeep just to keep them out, and that makes the skills with heavy FP requirements, just like any other skill in a class, except that it requires your youkai to be with you, and alive. Now imagine being that LE'd guy who's lower level then their youkai, has to hextuple the summoning cost, which goes from 5 to 30, and maintain a 17 FP upkeep just to have the youkai out. Summoners already only get two Offensive skills on their own, and one of them doesn't even do damage.
That isn't how that skill works, at all. You get hextupled costs if your youkai are above level 45 and you don't have the skill that allows it.
Re: Summoner Tweaks - Rendar - 02-04-2015
"[url=http://neus-projects.net/viewtopic.php?p=4290#p4290 Wrote:Ryu-Kazuki » Tue Feb 03, 2015 9:38 pm[/url]"]1. Lack of youkai
2. Lack of versatility with youkai.
3. Lack of offensive abilities (or maybe that's why they can use Evoke-Actives).
4. Hefty FP costs for both Upkeep and Evoking.
5. Not enough synergy with the youkai themselves, (all you have is Encourage, Astral Aegis, and Install).
6. Youkai being too much of a pain in the ass to level up.
Also. Forgot to add this bit.
1. Explain how with suggestion one, you can have X many affinities and X many sync-minds, and the Dev confirmed future youkai.
2. HUH?
3. HUHx2?
4. That's a strategic qualm. Many items can balance the upkeeps, and you get 10 + 5 FP per turn with GS. Mass summoning and the costs is a upkeep problem that has little to do with suggestion one and two. The other evoke flat out gives your deceased youkai just about all their HP. And overall, mass summoning and other class features (yes, there's a main and sub system) like hexer's quintessence and the exp curve alleviates any real difficulty.
5. Grand Summoner is the synergy with that. Summoner lets you give them FP. Specializations make room for youkai 'synergy' even if it's already synergizing so well with other classes.
6. Has nothing to do with the suggestions.
Re: Summoner Tweaks - Jay - 02-04-2015
Quote:Even if there aren't a lot of youkai right now, why should people focus on sticking with certain categories of youkai? Maybe they want only one from this section, but none of the others? I myself don't even use Beast youkai at all. But that's just an example of how people like to choose what kind of youkai they pick.You just brought up the major issue of people picking and choosing the best youkai from each category. That should not be a thing and if specializations reveals to you that some youkai are worse than others in that category, then that's a good thing. It would be your duty to report a balancefu topic. And I'm not sure where the suggestions states otherwise. But, you can grab any youkai you want once you have the contract. You just won't receive the sync-mind bonuses unless you pay that 7 SP.
Quote:Also, I was talking about DW's Evoke-Passive, not her Install ability. They are two entirely different things, and we're talking about Evoke-Passives at the moment, at least, that's what I was talking about..
You're bringing up the flaws of one youkai and demoting the usefulness it brings to combat. With the current system, grabbing DW under any circumstance forces you to have that weakness. If you're a dragon and avian summoner, you won't have to deal with those drawbacks because you aren't using the respective night sync-mind.
Quote:I, on the other hand, see the FP management (don't misunderstand, FP upkeep is fine, but it gets really taxing later on, that is an entirely different topic though), as more of a problem than "too much synergy and too many skills".
FP management and upkeep still has little to do with this suggestion. It doesn't increase or decrease the FP upkeep or management of anything. That's something you can suggest for another thread. But it's good to know you do see the synergy as a problem.
Quote:I don't honestly see anywhere in the game where it says, "you should be summoning your youkai or you are stupid". If people want to do nothing but use evoke skills, let them, that's a different playstyle, and it may be suited for them.I've no clue where you're getting at with the first sentence. But this suggestion does not remove the ability to use the summoner class as a buffer.
Quote:You also have to consider that youkai slots are solely focused on FAI. If you choose to opt out of FAI (hey maybe someone wants to), then you don't get many youkai to play around with.
....... Hrm. Okay. I don't think you read the part where I implied that as of now, you can make a character with 60 faith, grab the youkai you want, then rebirth with however much faith you want. Otherwise.. I'm really not sure where someone's decision to hinder their slots poses relevance.
Quote:And as for the lack of youkai, who knows when more will be added? Weeks? Months? Years? I'd rather start having more youkai before I limit what youkai I can and can't use properly.With contract, install, and mirror, you can have 4 affinities and 3 sync-minds with my suggestion. 5/5 Mirror is completely negligible compared to the other two, making that 4 sync-minds. You're underestimating the amount of youkai currently present.
Quote:Summoners have too many of their own personal problems for people who are anti-summoner (not saying you are) to start going "Summoner OP, plz nerf"Personal.. problems? Huh. This is just a class, and people will voice their opinion, even if it's sometimes irrational. I can't say that comment holds any relevance here either, sorry.
Quote:(when they're not even OP in the slightest, especially since it costs an arm and a leg to have more than one youkai out during a turn, and the initial turn they're summoned and sit there doing nothing).If I have to speak from personal experience. I had a long spar spar with Trex the other day, and had around 2-3 youkai for multiple turns, though sometimes I withdrew them for strategic reasons. Most of my FP drainage stemmed from spamming youkai skills, because I was too impatient to let them do it for me. And yes, thankfully they're visible for the initial turn, making great them distractions.