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+--- Thread: Summoner Tweaks (/showthread.php?tid=698)
Re: Summoner Tweaks - Ryu-Kazuki - 02-04-2015
If these were suggestions and not a topic for the balance of the class, why is this in Balance Fu? The thread is Summoner Tweaks, which gives off the impression of changing the class, rather than suggesting an addition. I just wanted to point that out.
I don't see why the current playstyle of certain people is a problem, even if it's a common thing for a base class. Summoners have enough problems before they need to start getting unnecessary nerfs, and that is why I disagree that this should be implemented, especially any time soon. It's better to really play a Summoner, or any class, sit down, and tinker with it in different builds and set-ups, before you go around saying it needs to be nerfed because you don't like the way people use the class. I think saying "X needs to be changed because Person B plays it this way, and that is wrong" is a poor reason to really suggest any kind of changes.
Because in my opinion, Summoner doesn't need this. It's only going to make a class that has potential, but doesn't utilize any of it, suck even more than it already does. I'm not sorry that I disagree.
I would also like to let you know, I've pretty much said my piece here, so I'm not going to really say much else to any form of rebuttals to my argument unless it's something different that I have to comment on (whether it be positively or negatively). So, I figured I'd save you the trouble of wasting time to type out a response.
Re: Summoner Tweaks - Jay - 02-04-2015
Quote:If these were suggestions and not a topic for the balance of the class, why is this in Balance Fu? The thread is Summoner Tweaks, which gives off the impression of changing the class, rather than suggesting an addition. I just wanted to point that out.Is this necessary? I don't think this has much to do with what I am offering. I won't pull up a dictionary, but yes, these are suggestions I'm issuing to balance a class. Those skills you see up there are additions. I think this much was obvious. As for the section, I don't recall if I placed it under suggestions, and if I did or did not, it'd have been moved.
Quote:I don't see why the current playstyle of certain people is a problem, even if it's a common thing for a base class. Summoners have enough problems before they need to start getting unnecessary nerfs, and that is why I disagree that this should be implemented, especially any time soon. It's better to really play a Summoner, or any class, sit down, and tinker with it in different builds and set-ups, before you go around saying it needs to be nerfed because you don't like the way people use the class. I think saying "X needs to be changed because Person B plays it this way, and that is wrong" is a poor reason to really suggest any kind of changes.
Alrighty. This is escalating. Lets smash one thing at a time. Firstly, I've been playing the summoner class for over, or around a year now. Always have been. I don't need people to vouch for that, but that's just to clarify and settle those personal jabs. I think the points were raised on both sides. So I'm unable to address your other 'point'-- that you're assuming I'm bashing 'playstyles'. I'm not going to keep defending fallacies that claim I'm saying "So and so's playstyle is wrong because they have that option". In my opinion, the suggestion spreads the balance from you spending 2 SP for a plethora of strengths/weaknesses to specialization. You already made it clear you disagree. Let others bring up other points.
Quote: I'm not sorry that I disagree.
I'm still not understanding where these comments are coming form. I don't need any apologies, so that's fine.
Quote:I would also like to let you know, I've pretty much said my piece here, so I'm not going to really say much else to any form of rebuttals to my argument unless it's something different that I have to comment on (whether it be positively or negatively). So, I figured I'd save you the trouble of wasting time to type out a response.Thank you.
Re: Summoner Tweaks - Chaos - 02-06-2015
The thing about Summoners is that versatility is their strong suit; as long as they have the slots, they can touch any number of bases with the diverse types of Youkai available. Does that mean they're literally a master of all trades? No. On its own, the Summoner class is a foundation to build the Youkai on, and without Youkai, it is completely useless; hell, even the Grand Summoner has only one meager fall-out plan if their Youkai fail them.
This also leads into my point on why I feel like trying to cut up Sync-Mind is a bad idea; compared to Class Skills, Sync-Mind skills are weak. The main incentive is the Actives, and even if their scaling promises good damage, they will still have a hefty FP cost associated with them if you want to maximize their potential. Don't even bother with Passives; Class Skills will top any single one of them on any day of the week. (Hell, even a good amount of equipment trumps their effects) Sure, you might get something good if you had specific combinations, but that's just it; a Sync-Mind Passive is there to give a small bump to something else.
Furthermore, the Summoner already can't get every fundamental with how many SPs they get. If you want to get all seven affinities maxed out? Get an extra SP in Summoner, and don't bother with anything but The Contract and the Affinities. You want Sync-Mind/Install/Cracked Mirror? You have only 4-5 Affinities to choose from. Considering how Youkai Growths are written up right now, I have no issue with that many Affinities being accessible. It would be far worse if the Summoner was forced to lose even more SP due to one aspect being split up and requiring maxed-out Affinities to begin with.
That's the kind of specialization that belongs in a Promotion Class, not a Base Class.
I agree with some of the Youkai Skills becoming Spells, though.
Re: Summoner Tweaks - Trexmaster - 02-06-2015
"[url=http://www.neus-projects.net/viewtopic.php?p=4410#p4410 Wrote:Chaos » Fri Feb 06, 2015 7:33 am[/url]"]The thing about Summoners is that versatility is their strong suit; as long as they have the slots, they can touch any number of bases with the diverse types of Youkai available. Does that mean they're literally a master of all trades? No. On its own, the Summoner class is a foundation to build the Youkai on, and without Youkai, it is completely useless; hell, even the Grand Summoner has only one meager fall-out plan if their Youkai fail them.The issue, is that this versatility leads it to be one of the best, if not /the/ best choice to sub with whatever promo it is you main. Summoner (the base class) is useless without youkai, yes, I don't see why you needed to bring that up? I don't see how that last bit is relevant, or what you even meant by that. You could say the same thing about any other promo's strong suit failing them (A BK's defense being ignored, a MG's hit being rendered useless, etc.), except I don't see how this one could ever happen, there is no true hard counter to everything Youkai can do for a GS.
Quote:This also leads into my point on why I feel like trying to cut up Sync-Mind is a bad idea; compared to Class Skills, Sync-Mind skills are weak. The main incentive is the Actives, and even if their scaling promises good damage, they will still have a hefty FP cost associated with them if you want to maximize their potential. Don't even bother with Passives; Class Skills will top any single one of them on any day of the week. (Hell, even a good amount of equipment trumps their effects) Sure, you might get something good if you had specific combinations, but that's just it; a Sync-Mind Passive is there to give a small bump to something else.The thing is, with the slots for it (which as stated in the OP dev has allowed you to do a faith-run to get nearly /all/ the youkai that'd give you any sort of benefit), you can have a very, very large repertoire of both actives and passives to utilize. Obviously they, by themselves, won't compare to class abilities that do similar, but some actives are capable of meeting or exceeding them, if only for a higher FP price. What this change would do is force you to pick what youkai's abilities you'd be able to access yourself, instead of being able to use /all/ of them. You'd be able to choose about 3-4 youkai types, which is more than enough to get what you want.
Quote:Furthermore, the Summoner already can't get every fundamental with how many SPs they get. If you want to get all seven affinities maxed out? Get an extra SP in Summoner, and don't bother with anything but The Contract and the Affinities. You want Sync-Mind/Install/Cracked Mirror? You have only 4-5 Affinities to choose from. Considering how Youkai Growths are written up right now, I have no issue with that many Affinities being accessible. It would be far worse if the Summoner was forced to lose even more SP due to one aspect being split up and requiring maxed-out Affinities to begin with.Affinities just give a small bonus to installs and the youkai itself--it's not entirely unreasonable to have it be difficult to fit in so many of those into your build. As it stands, you're not penalized at all for not taking the affinity for a youkai if you never plan to summon it.
Quote:That's the kind of specialization that belongs in a Promotion Class, not a Base Class.Okay. You can pick which youkai to specialize in, thus the versatility would remain, it'd simply be more restricted in that you wouldn't have immediate access to every active and passive for yourself. Summoner as it stands isn't specialized at all.
Re: Summoner Tweaks - Ryu-Kazuki - 02-06-2015
"[url=http://neus-projects.net/viewtopic.php?p=4419#p4419 Wrote:Trexmaster » Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:43 pm[/url]"]
Okay. You can pick which youkai to specialize in, thus the versatility would remain, it'd simply be more restricted in that you wouldn't have immediate access to every active and passive for yourself. Summoner as it stands isn't specialized at all.
Here's one little thing I want to rebuttal that with. What about Summoners who specialize in an element, especially if they're an Evoker/Summoner or LB/Summoner, rather than a specific type of youkai? Splitting Synch Mind up would force them to spend more SP than they have to get all the youkai of a specific element focus rather than what youkai type they are.
Re: Summoner Tweaks - Jay - 02-06-2015
"[url=http://www.neus-projects.net/viewtopic.php?p=4420#p4420 Wrote:Ryu-Kazuki » Fri Feb 06, 2015 12:45 pm[/url]"]"[url=http://neus-projects.net/viewtopic.php?p=4419#p4419 Wrote:Trexmaster » Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:43 pm[/url]"]
Okay. You can pick which youkai to specialize in, thus the versatility would remain, it'd simply be more restricted in that you wouldn't have immediate access to every active and passive for yourself. Summoner as it stands isn't specialized at all.
Here's one little thing I want to rebuttal that with. What about Summoners who specialize in an element, especially if they're an Evoker/Summoner or LB/Summoner, rather than a specific type of youkai? Splitting Synch Mind up would force them to spend more SP than they have to get all the youkai of a specific element focus rather than what youkai type they are.
The current system also offers the ability to claim you specialize and excel in everything. As for summoners specializing in elements, their emphasis are the youkai, you're bringing up an RP aspect that'd fall more so under an actual magician. And that's one objective-- to enforce affinity paths according to youkai type, not elements. That's not what the class is intended for at least (according to the skills). If it came down to me wanting to play a fire summoner, I'd have 3-4 sync-minds to 'specialize' in. Again, that's more than enough. If there's hypothetically so many fire youkai among more than 6 affinities, I can still use them for summoning. Not every youkai I have has to reinforce my stature.
-- Also. If you're concerned about elemental specialization. A hypothetical suggestion would include the 'elemental affinity', but after seeing Drowned Woman distinguished as a 'Night', there's no indication he's intending for elemental specialization.
Re: Summoner Tweaks - Ryu-Kazuki - 02-06-2015
I don't see how a Summoner desiring to contract with only youkai of a certain elemental affinity is something only a Mage would do. Summoners can pick and choose what youkai they'd like for whatever reason they'd like, including any combat tactics they'd like, including Evocations. I see no reason to actually separate Synch-Mind other than people complaining they have access to too much when half of those skills they might not even use for reasons like that I stated. They may not even use the Evoke-Actives at all and use it for only the passive skills.
As for claiming you excel in everything? That's hardly the case. All you really get is what abilities your youkai specialize in, and that can be a very scattered and broad spectrum, but with fair drawbacks in turn. In fact, it has nothing to do with any other class mechanics than the fact it provides elemental support, other than that, you don't special in anything besides bonding with you youkai, which is the point of the Summoner class.
Re: Summoner Tweaks - Jay - 02-06-2015
Quote:I don't see how a Summoner desiring to contract with only youkai of a certain elemental affinity is something only a Mage would do.You didn't read the sentence properly if that's all you got from it. I'm speaking in the context of what Dev intends for the affinities. You're free to suggest elemental affinities though.
Quote:Summoners can pick and choose what youkai they'd like for whatever reason they'd like, including any combat tactics they'd like, including Evocations.Indeed. Except they shouldn't be able to potentially specialize in everything. This is aimed for balance, not satisfying the need for mastering everything you touch.
Quote:I see no reason to actually separate Synch-Mind other than people complaining they have access to too much when half of those skills they might not even use for reasons like what I stated.That's an issue regarding the roleplayer, not the suggestion itself. You'll always have to make-do with whatever limitations Dev inflicts on your class.
Quote:As for claiming you excel in everything? That's hardly the case. All you really get is what abilities your youkai specialize in, and that can be a very scattered and broad spectrum.This wouldn't have been mentioned if you haven't kept bringing up the RP perspective of it all. If you see obtaining 3 abilities per youkai slot with no limitation 'all you really get', then again, there's no point with the back and forth. Your opinion is still set in stone.
Quote:In fact, it has nothing to do with any other class mechanics than the fact it provides elemental support, other than that, you don't special in anything besides bonding with you youkai, which is the point of the Summoner class.You're forgetting the stat boosts, multitude of status effects, and buffs among other things that has something to offer for other class mechanics.
Re: Summoner Tweaks - Rendar - 02-06-2015
Aren't the fire youkai...
Firefox
Chun
Jack'O'Lantern
I think those are the only three.
Beast, Dragon, Plant.
Three affinities for your fire type love.
Re: Summoner Tweaks - Ryu-Kazuki - 02-07-2015
There's nothing balancing about cutting the Summoner class' gimmick just because you think they "master" everything, when they don't. Every Evocation has major disadvantages to them, which have already been stated multiple times. Balance is necessary when something may be OP to the point its unfair, but the majority of these skills hardly are that, and to even get them to do anything worthwhile, you need to spend time leveling your youkai as well as FP -and- youkai management in combat to use them effectively.
This suggestion only benefits the anti-Summoners, and they don't have a hard time against the Summoner, so why is this thought to be necessary? It's only going to hurt a rather undesired class more than it needs to be just to give those against them an easy time against the Summoner, who already isn't difficult to beat (it's not easy, but it's not impossible either). That's hardly balance at all.
Also, for Aquarian youkai;
Drowned Woman
Snow Crow
Yukki-Ona
Asrai
Haiku
That's five youkai with 4 different affinities, which with this suggestion would cost 28 SP. And in turn would apply to other elements when more youkai come out. You shouldn't have to spend 29 SP just to properly use five youkai.