+- NEUS Projects (https://neus-projects.net/forums)
+-- Forum: Sigrogana Legend 2 (OOC) (https://neus-projects.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=8)
+--- Forum: Balance Fu (https://neus-projects.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=11)
+--- Thread: Da Engineer is a Bloodeh Spoi (Engineer Bots need one more skill) (/showthread.php?tid=7004)
Da Engineer is a Bloodeh Spoi (Engineer Bots need one more skill) - Snake - 06-23-2020
Being too niche and 'do-this and only this' makes all Engineer bots lose their reliability quite a lot. And since Engineer's other gimmicks got nerfed thanks to adjustments to bombs, could we get them something new? All I ask is one new skill per bot, nothing big but that could help them be much more desirable and worth the 50 FP cost.
Quote:Deploy: Turret
Rapid Fire Protocol
2M, 15 FP, 5 range.
A skill that deals Pierce physical damage 6 times (25% of the Turret's LV per shot). Ignores Armor and applies on-hit effects. This will inflict Overheat on the Turret, which may make it suffer increasing Fire damage every time the skill is used. (The same way Mechanations do.)
Quote:Deploy: Railgan
Warding Protocol
3M, 15 FP, 0 range.
A skill that deals Light magic damage (120% SWA) in a 2 range circle around the Railgan. This knocks back and knocks down enemies, while inflicting Blind on them.
Quote:Deploy: Medibot
Supportive Protocol
3M, 15 FP, 5 range.
A skill that targets an ally or enemy in 5 range. Flies over to them, ignoring field hazards. If the target is an enemy, it will deal (Medibot LV) Acid magic damage and attempt to inflict them with Poison (LV = Medibot LV/2). If it's an ally, it will heal them for (Medibot LV) and grant Regenerating (LV = Medibot LV) for 3 rounds.
Quote:Deploy: Metalaegis
Defensive Protocol
6M, 15 FP, 0 range.
A skill that grants Guarding LV60 and heals Metalaegis for its LV.
Re: Da Engineer is a Bloodeh Spoi (Engineer Bots need one more skill) - Grandpa - 06-23-2020
Didn't engineer just get a rework? Didn't that same engineer rework dominate the PvP scene for several months after?
Why is any of this necessary? I'd sooner hope for a buff to the skills people don't usually use slash the ones I don't see used, the "upgrade" series.
Re: Da Engineer is a Bloodeh Spoi (Engineer Bots need one more skill) - Lonestar - 06-24-2020
While more skills is always nice, I don't believe Engineer is in a dire need of more. It's already a class that can snowball most of the matchups one-on-one, has very bulky robots and tons of tools at their disposal.
Not to mention all the skills above would be less fun and more a headache to balance and to those who deal with that. Engineer is fine.
RE: Da Engineer is a Bloodeh Spoi (Engineer Bots need one more skill) - HexGirlBestGirl - 06-25-2020
Pretty much with Lone here. Engineer compliments enough classes as it is. Destiny Engineer is still strong enough, Non-Destiny Engineer is fine more or less but not as good. Personally, I don't think Engineer needs much of a change or a buff or a nerf right now.
I didn't even think the bomb spam was that bad, since a majority of the time it was just Grenade Launcher being the real additional pain due to its 1m cost alongside the usual (now nerfed/changed) smoke that came after the infamous Bomb + Grenade Launcher combo.
Init changes also made it so that I value having my engineer bots on the field a lot more in most situations. So, i'm gonna have to say a hard no one this one. Seems more like a 'this would be cool to have' rather than a 'this needs/should be here' kind of deal. The former does seem cool, but just no.
RE: Da Engineer is a Bloodeh Spoi (Engineer Bots need one more skill) - WaifuApple - 06-26-2020
Going to have to admit that this really doesn't feel like a balance post - it doesn't feel like it's balancing anything. Seems like it's moreso offering suggestions on what would be nice, rather than identifying the current problems with the class. Maybe it'd been more worth supporting in a suggestions thread, but I can't see this as important.
RE: Da Engineer is a Bloodeh Spoi (Engineer Bots need one more skill) - Snake - 06-26-2020
Well.
I don't like how Turrets do such a little number on basic hit damage and have such a pathetic accuracy despite having the role of 'stable damage over time' unlike Railgan's big burst, and I don't like how Medicopter tends to be useless the moment they run out of potions. Both also have a terrible Move and can be kited.
Can't you all ever notice this when you're in PvE? These two in particular are just so god-awful boring to use.
That definitely cuts from their use, unlike let's say, Youkai, who are much more reliable with chunky autohits or Monster gimmicks. Railgan and Metalaegis were suggestions given for the sake of having all bots with something to do.
RE: Da Engineer is a Bloodeh Spoi (Engineer Bots need one more skill) - HexGirlBestGirl - 06-26-2020
(06-26-2020, 05:08 PM)Snake Wrote: Well.
I don't like how Turrets do such a little number on basic hit damage and have such a pathetic accuracy despite having the role of 'stable damage over time' unlike Railgan's big burst, and I don't like how Medicopter tends to be useless the moment they run out of potions. Both also have a terrible Move and can be kited.
Can't you all ever notice this when you're in PvE? These two in particular are just so god-awful boring to use.
That definitely cuts from their use, unlike let's say, Youkai, who are much more reliable with chunky autohits or Monster gimmicks. Railgan and Metalaegis were suggestions given for the sake of having all bots with something to do.
Turrets do fine enough damage and have two skills to add onto it. Calibrate helps with accuracy and also prevents those with no hit rate themselves from making full use of it. But in general, the fact you can upgrade them and what have you. Y'know, like half your kit revolves around, is already a blessing in of itself. Attaching a grenade launcher or overclocking it as a meme or even just putting a simple jetpack already adds more than enough oppression in both PvE and PvP from my experiences. It even functions fine as bait and Turn Order Manipulation fodder. So can't personally say I have much of an issue with turrets and their damage is mostly fine for what it is. Usually better on Destiny Engineer though. Especially since bullets ignore armor and they have flat scaling stats. But I can get a metric ton of value out of it just fine. Even with the timer changes to Grenade Launcher respectively.
Medicopters use their loads and then get salvaged or scrapped to give you FP back. That makes perfect sense. If you really want it to be worth more than that, your only option is admittedly shoving a grenade launcher on it. Overclocking it and making it an explosive bomb is an option I guess but that's usually liable to just get your opponent free claret or fleur or whatever "i get bonus for hitting this thing" the enemy has to gain. But Medicopters serve their purpose that they're intended for just fine. "Ah, yes. I wish to be healed by this machine i'm placing down. I wish it could do something other than what it reads it should be doing. I have healed with it and now it's useless. Yikes."
That doesn't sound all that reasonable or logical. As for the kiting aspect, that's mere Zone of Control effect being beneficial as I aforementioned. If they even try and kite it? That's already making their movements more predictable or inconveniencing them. That's a huge gain in some scenarios. Most, really. If they don't, I get more time to do shenanigans usually. It's the same with summoner and their youkai. Merely by them being present are they potentially an oppressive force or an action economy manipulator. Likewise, the MAP and Jetpack Upgrades serve as your main ways to alleviate the mobility issues. Both with their pros and cons, naturally.
Youkai gimmicks are naturally better since they're Youkai. Engineer is just a lesser, different take on Summoner overall. Yet barring damage, you can still get similar enough value from field presence. Sure can't get the install bonuses or the "me have 12 actives/passives" from it though. Turret just exists to be damage on the side, which at the base it does just fine. Especially in PvE, rather than PvP where most everything is a tanky wall capable of mitigating or lowering the damage. But having a triple shooting armor-ignoring gun or a knockback from Bullet Shred on your side can still be game changing. (Don't forget Grenade Launcher still.)
Railgan is just burst damage with a fixed damage amount that can get mitigated in a few ways. It is the literal breathing definition of how meaningful the action economy manipulation or zone of control aspect of things is. Since any action taken to avoid or go around the Railgan is also mostly applicable to the Medibot or Turret. In that one either wastes their time going for it which is an advantage in your favor 90% of the time. Even if you can just say "so I wasted 50 FP and it got borderline instant destroyed, how the FUCK is that helpful?" to which i'd just respond with "anytime you have to go out of your way to yeet a youkai or engineer bot or actively avoid them, tell me how easier your life would be if you just didn't."
Medicopter is literally 50 FP for free items and healing. It is a literal deployable healer of the item variety. Not made for damage. Made for simply shoving items down your throat and not being out on the field otherwise. I literally do not understand the complaint here, personally.
MAP is literally just to move you around with your bots. If anything, this is typically the most dangerous/worthless investment of 50 FP.
Metalaegis is literally a defensive bot and has a projectile reflector to save you from fixed projectiles that aren't a massive AoE and a literal god shield to protect you from just about everything. It's fine.
Add atop the ability to combine this with other classes while not constantly burning your FP as a Summoner, having access to most things at the Base Rogue Level (even if questionable barring traps and some winds) to make these already aforementioned things better and play to their sheer existing strengths. I just don't think we really need much of that stuff right now.
RE: Da Engineer is a Bloodeh Spoi (Engineer Bots need one more skill) - Snake - 06-26-2020
I'd rather have Turret's two skills be changed for that one single target multi-hit that ignores Armor I suggested, honestly. What they got right now does not give the vibe of a machinegun turret you'd see from games like Team Fortress 2.
What they got? A boring, less-damaging Toiken with Lead Storm's icon to it and an autohit Repel with, again, Lead Storm's icon that does no significant damage and no longer serves for any purpose with Cinder nerfs/knockback adjustments.
How the hell is this snore-fest so hard to see for everyone? I don't even want it to be strong, just want this to look cool even if all they do is tickle and continue with the peashooter theme.
And Medicopter has only one valuable item, with no way to refresh their inventory. An item that grants Potion Sickness. And the moment this item is spended, Medicopter no longer has any more use in a fight. I'd rather their inventory got changed to actual skills. A healing skill with a huge cooldown, a poison cleanse skill, a fear cleanse skill, etc etc.
Even if it ends nerfing them further in the end, all I'm asking is for some fluff.
RE: Da Engineer is a Bloodeh Spoi (Engineer Bots need one more skill) - WaifuApple - 06-26-2020
Again, asking for fluff really doesn't sound like a balance fu thread imo. I'd honestly advocate more for cool skills if you did a thread like this in suggestions instead, since it doesn't seem like it's geared enough towards patching a weakness or identifying a strength in the class.
RE: Da Engineer is a Bloodeh Spoi (Engineer Bots need one more skill) - HexGirlBestGirl - 06-27-2020
Visually, sure. It's pretty lackluster. But i'm merely talking overall effective value. Which, yeah. Bullet Spray is usually questionable damage since it's pretty okay at the base but commonplace tanks'll just y'know. Make it next to 0. If not 0.
And i'unno. I've gotten use of most of the Medicopter's kit whenever relevant. It is its own little thing, so that's less momentum for me to use to cure or heal myself for however much. And more momentum for an enemy to waste. So while i'll say two items are typically objectively better than the rest, on average no less, can't say that 'only one item is useful' overall.
Otherwise, pretty much with Apple here.