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Spellthief's offensive ability (or lack thereof) - SolAndLuna - 06-26-2020
Hello, hello, first balance thread, let's see how this goes.
Now, Spellthief is one of my favorite classes, so I will admit that it's possible I'm somewhat biased. That being said, I personally feel like the way Spellthief's copy spells are set up right now feels... unsatisfying, to say the least.
Currently, the way Spellthief works is that you can have a maximum of 6 (7 with a spirit) spells saved outside of battle, with any extras being removed at the start of a new fight, but using any copy spell causes a 3 turn cooldown for that spell. While this does still leave just enough spells to ensure you can cast something, it does mean that you regularly end up with a situation where the tools you might want to use are still stuck on cooldown, while the classes you got those same tools from can and most likely will use them constantly.
Now, under normal circumstances, that'd be fine - the class allows a player to set up any kind of skill setup they please - if it weren't for one thing. Namely, the fact that any spell a Spellthief uses normally won't be nearly as effective as one from the original class. As a result, your best option is to use support spells from other classes, with a second class that can solve the actual "damage" part of things, unless you make use of Final Flare/Hot Potato to blow things up.
Ghost's spells don't get Rising Game, so the spells won't have nearly as much range. Mage and Evoker spells don't get Auto-Enchant (or even an enchant if you don't use up both momentum and another spell slot), Charge Mind or Highwrath in the case of lightning spells, so damage and overall effectiveness is relatively limited. Hexer? No Payback or Dark Invasion, so status infliction is lower. Lantern Bearer's spells get reduced range, Curate's healing and buffing spells don't get Mass to use, Void Assassin's spells don't get Voidgates or Void Energy, using Ranger spells is impossible without a bow... There are exceptions - Boxer doesn't have any limitations, and Firebird's and Tactician's boosts are somewhat less useful compared to others - but the point is, a large number of spells are less effective, and they also get a 3 turn cooldown on top of that.
So, here are my suggestions, if this is considered an issue for others as well as myself:
1. Simply lower the cooldown to some degree, making it be 1 round instead. Maybe 2 rounds instead if a 1 round cooldown is considered to be too much.
2. A couple of new mutually exclusive skills - one that lowers the cooldown for spells stolen from sentient races, and one that lowers the cooldown for spells stolen from monsters, potentially with both skills increasing the cooldown for the other type. I'm aware that some people like the idea of using Spellthief as a sort of "blue mage" class, and some instead prefer using it as a kind of "red mage" class. This would allow people to specialize in either option, or simply take any kind of spell they want to use and ignore both passives if necessary.
3. Making passive skills from other classes apply only for the spells that it's supposed to (Farlight for Lantern Bearer spells, Rising Game for Ghost spells, so on).
Personally, I'd prefer option 1, mostly because it's a fairly simple solution by comparison, but if anyone feels differently, I do welcome any discussion about it.
RE: Spellthief's offensive ability (or lack thereof) - Senna - 06-26-2020
Alot of classes are outdated and ST is one of them. Yes, I do believe the CD should be a little less. If you want to use Spellthief as a damaging source, you're only hurting yourself. As it stands, the class seems heavily supportive than anything else. The offensive possibly is a little bit oof right now. While I'm against the spells being just as good/powerful as the original and the bonus they offer, I do believe the CD needs to be looked at a it. So it doesn't have that stand still period whereas you're wondering what you should do while everything offensive is on CD.
1 turn CD doesn't seem too bad since technique with CD tacks priority anyways.
RE: Spellthief's offensive ability (or lack thereof) - WaifuApple - 06-26-2020
Depending on how cooldown works, I'd be more likely to say 2 turns is better than one. If cooldown expires on turn end with a one turn skill, all you end up with is a double-tap prevention cooldown. Imo, they should at have to wait one full turn before being able to use something again, rather than just 3-4 additional momentum.
That would still be a slight buff over how it is now, and loosen up things so it's not as common that you're going to be unable to use all your offensive skills, unless you only have a small portion of your capacity dedicated to them.
Alternatively, tweak overload copy to have more potency behind it, making the damage feel worth the cooldown. In that case they'll feel stronger, but you might still find yourself with turns you can't really act on. Could argue that at that point you should have some back-up in the form of your sub class for those moments anyway, because silence... but I get that it would be more fun the less it's limited.
RE: Spellthief's offensive ability (or lack thereof) - Snake - 06-26-2020
I believe Flying Dagger and Mystic Dagger could both be changed to afflict the enemy with some status effects. New players often just look at Spellthief, think they're "omfg some handsome rogues!" just to see their offensive skills are piss poor and that they're better just stealing and using spells. Which also is a chore given the lack of constant usability. I agree with the post, but making the dagger skills more appealing is also something they need direly, if not only to make their theme better in PvE.
- Lower Stolen Spell cooldowns to 1 round (2 rounds if Spellthief is sub-classed).
- Flying Dagger could additionally inflict Lingering Damage and increases its Duration by 1 and LV by Weapon's Power + Rank.
- Mystic Dagger could additionally attack an enemy in 1 range then, if you critically hit, teleport behind another and attack them too, until this condition is no longer met OR you have hit everyone atleast once. If the enemy is Blinded or you are under the effects of Sneaking, it also has a luck-based chance to inflict Knockdown.
- Goose Bite could additionally have a luck-based chance to inflict Silence if done from behind, or Poison (LV = Rank * 4) if not. Both for 3 rounds.
RE: Spellthief's offensive ability (or lack thereof) - WaifuApple - 06-26-2020
For once I can honestly sort of agree on that sentiment. The fact is that spellthief has just been a class that only exists for people planning to use the spells, and at times some other rare skills. The attempt it has at an identity leaves it with a lot of what feels like dead weight to me.
Personally, I do think the class needs a lot more attention to the part of it that includes daggers more than it needs buffs to spell use, since that feels tacked on. Not going to suggest my own ideas on how that could be achieved. Just that a lot of the steal skills go unused outside of being used to get an initial roster of pre-determined spells, and a lot of the dagger spells seem underwhelming.
RE: Spellthief's offensive ability (or lack thereof) - Autumn - 06-26-2020
It doesn't really focus on stealing a lot of spells because running up to someone in 1 range to steal a spell often doesn't work out, and baiting a spell in via snatch spell either has people just not target you straight up or use skills that target the ground instead like Fir/Wind Slasher/Explosion/etc.
This leaves Spellthief in a very awkward spot where its power distribution is all over the place, it can possibly be a strong class vs the likes of lantern bearer or hexer, but then it starts suffering versus anyone who has the ability to just get around snatch spell.
More over, spell snatch itself is not very good, I think another thread where I mentioned that steal skills could receive a rogue passive that allows them to basic attack would be fine, since then you can move up and spell snatch, and still accomplish what any rogue's goal should be, dealing damage.
Onto the actual stolen spells themselves, I think bumping overload copy's power bonus is not a bad idea, to give those 3 round cooldowns a lot more oomph to them, that way you don't have spellthief stapled as build a mage again.
a short explanation of Spellthief's perceived problems with its gameplay:
-It does not wholly fulfill the fantasy of being an anti-mage nor does it really focus on stealing spells.
-Damage is mediocre and must be prepared via supplement classes or item setups, this is uncommon for Rogue subclasses.
-Has a lack of direction or gameplay plan, there's no goal to lead up to save for final flare which is incredibly niche to use and easy to stop.
Thats all I'll comment on so far.
RE: Spellthief's offensive ability (or lack thereof) - SolAndLuna - 06-26-2020
I don't disagree that the dagger skills also need something, definitely, but at the same time, adjustments like that may be a bit much?
The Flying Dagger one in particular bugs me, since it kind of leads back to the same issues skills like Grenade Launcher have - a 1 momentum skill that consistently adds a fair deal of extra damage with no real counter available. If I understood the way it's written correctly, it would add more Lingering Damage each time it's used, when... well, if set up properly, daggers can reach about 20 Power, so it'd add up to a lot of damage very quickly. If you meant that it would simply be a Lingering Damage status that can't be powered up, then that sounds reasonable enough, but I'm personally still a bit wary of adding statuses like that to something that only costs 1 momentum.
Beyond that, for the Mystic Dagger suggestion... well, being able to hit every enemy, regardless of distance, with a basic attack that also knocks down if the opponent is blinded (something that the Spellthief can get Altera, Divine Shower or even Pocket Sand for pretty easily) sounds like a tad much to me, personally, especially when you're saying they'd appear behind their opponent and daggers like the Dancing Shiv, Vorpal Fang or even stuff like Tsukikage exist. Maybe having it only warp once, to a predictable location (for example, the enemy closest/furthest away from you) sounds fair? Definitely not "I get to attack everyone every round", though, especially when it's not even a main class skill.
I do kind of agree on Goose Bite, though - more sources of Silence are definitely welcome at the moment, and it makes the skill somewhat more usable.
As for this...
(06-26-2020, 03:04 PM)WaifuApple Wrote: Personally, I do think the class needs a lot more attention to the part of it that includes daggers more than it needs buffs to spell use, since that feels tacked on. Not going to suggest my own ideas on how that could be achieved. Just that a lot of the steal skills go unused outside of being used to get an initial roster of pre-determined spells, and a lot of the dagger spells seem underwhelming.
Well, I agree that Spellthief's other skills need some love, too, and admittedly, I only mentioned the copy spells because... well, the class is called "Spellthief", magic is quite literally their main specialty just from the name alone. That being said, at least from my understanding, classes generally shouldn't only be capable of using one specific kind of thing well, and especially not the Rogue classes. Void Assassin can equally be a mage or a dagger build, for example, and Engineer has the ability to summon bots, fly around with Jetpack, toss bombs/grenades, give others the ability to do some of the same things and so on.
As it is now, Spellthief is (technically) capable of being a support class, a dagger build or a mage class, and ideally, I'd rather it was still capable of all of those to some degree. The problem as it is now is that it is far, far more capable of being a support class than any of the other things it is capable of - buffs and debuffs don't need you to use them more than once every few rounds anyway, after all. For a Rogue class that literally has "spell" in the name, that just sounds wrong, personally.
For a dagger-wielding Spellthief, it's pretty clear that the dagger skills, aside from Final Flare/Hot Potato, need some sort of improvement, regardless of whether I agree with some of the written suggestions. As for having Spellthief be a mage class... Sure, it has copy spells to use, and even with a 2 round cooldown, it would generally mean you have at least one attack to use, but the problem is that it won't always be the attack you really want to use. Between resistances/immunities/absorbs making specific spells a bad option, crippled ability to use utility spells (Blink/Swap Position, among others) making certain invocations difficult, spells that lack the range/utility/damage that their original classes can offer and a general inability to repeat things like status inflicting spells the way other mages can, their magic definitely needs a boost of some kind as well.
TLDR - dagger spells definitely need to be adjusted, but I'd still appreciate copy spells being looked at as well.
RE: Spellthief's offensive ability (or lack thereof) - Snake - 06-26-2020
It won't be an instant infliction, you'll have to go through a luck-based infliction for all the proposed effects except Flying Dagger, for clarification.
Flying Dagger could behave like Incise for a reduced LV build up, though unlike Incise it's only limited to once per round, and that 1M is very essential when you're Dagger Dancing, but that's not really what I suggested.
Just a ranged Lingering Damage auto-inflict to make it a reliable skill to deny some of the enemy's regeneration effects for a prolonged duration.
And Mystic Dagger could then be a Main Class only, I don't care. I just want to be flashy and mada-mada'y on my cool feathered-hat-toting deck'o'card vile Rogue. Attacking monsters or mages when they least expect, exploiting their lack of awareness to throw a trip kick then fancily back off in grace, filling my quota and deck of cards with their delicious spells.
I want a 'theme' to go from, no matter how odd or powerful they end. And... The blind clause was to make it be different from Void Assassin. And the fact you can outright deny Blind's existence by wearing Kaminah's Robe, or just having a good status resistance. It's not that bad, really. (I hope)
RE: Spellthief's offensive ability (or lack thereof) - SolAndLuna - 06-27-2020
I see. Sounds like I misinterpreted what you meant with Flying Dagger, then. Sorry about that. Just inflicting Lingering Damage sounds reasonable enough to me.
And, the only reason I suggested your version of Mystic Dagger being main class only is so it couldn't be used with things like Fleur, for example. It can also let someone attack everyone twice every round if they have a 1 momentum movement skill, but I figure that's a bit less of an issue since they need to both hit and crit with the skill for it to move to another target. Past that, I have no issues with the suggestions for dagger skills, personally.
please let me cast spells better too though
RE: Spellthief's offensive ability (or lack thereof) - WaifuApple - 06-27-2020
Still advocating for it to be a case of two turns rather than three - but not one turn cooldown on spells. Mainly because I don't think their spellcasting should be THAT versatile. I think it's fair that they have to contend with not always having the spell they want when they need it, but not to the extent they do now. Encourages playing smart about picking your spells since you need to plan for what you'd do if something's on cooldown.