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+--- Thread: Geisting (/showthread.php?tid=7022)
Geisting - Swiftkusura - 06-27-2020
It's no secret that there's a lot of mixed opinion about geist and I'm going to mention that as well, but there's a bit of a wonder I have.
It's currently possible to, with the range of geist, have both a defensive maneuver and kite your enemy while they suffer poison ect, meaning they can spend 3m to avoid autohits but also move as far as the standard blink/teleport meaning if you're not more than 1 range of an attacker without using a skill, you're screwed by default because any skill that would have bypassed geist just baits you to die while they gain momentum for your lack of ability to do anything while you take 10% hp a turn to poison.
I feel there should be a system in place against using geist to kite, personally, but on that same note, i think that geist should cover more ground about what it reacts to, with an exception to aoes *Or at least change it so aoes still happen when the geist triggers*
Right now we face the fact that half the skills bypass geist making it useless against some, but to those it is useful against, it's too cheesy because it can be used to kite.
Another issue I have is the fact that basic attack skills are being read as autohits, meaning there's one geist that is the clear "Take it or suffer" because it means everything, pierce linker side cut ect, what's the point of the basic attack geist if your opponant has to run up to you and basic attack you, duelists barely do that, a kensei wants to wazabane, for example.
TL;DR geist to me doesn't make any sense, it's both a great kiting untensil because it protects you from 50% of skills but also useless because some skills "Target the ground" and I feel both things should be addressed moving forward, but in the same vein if we do make it count things such as dynamic tomes, change it so the attack still happens when geisted for the sake of team fights.
Alternatively add a 2 round CD to geists, where they can't have a button every turn to bait people into dying, boxers can walk again as far as I've heard they don't need geist every turn beyond ignoring autohits.
RE: Geisting - Mr.SmileGod - 06-27-2020
I agree that AoEs should still affect everyone but the boxer with geist, but there's issues with tacking on cooldowns for Geist. First off, diagonals still shaft boxers. Moving DOES still remove sturm, and the only pull skill boxers have costs 2 sturm as well. This means that their ONLY form of movement is Geist, and Korken. Korken takes a 22 FP at its highest rank, 30 at its lowest.
Then, couple that with the fact that if the geist is ignored / bypassed / they guessed wrong? They're out 20 FP and 3 momentum for that incorrect guess. Geist can be tricky to deal with sometimes, but that's... literally the point. And most of the time it doesn't pan out for the boxer anyway, it's just an expensive way to move around without losing your Sturm.
RE: Geisting - HexGirlBestGirl - 06-27-2020
"Alternatively add a 2 round CD to geists, where they can't have a button every turn to bait people into dying, boxers can walk again as far as I've heard they don't need geist every turn beyond ignoring autohits."
Mind you, they only lose 2 Sturm instead of all of it now by moving. They still lose 25% of their gathered damage bonus and only get 1 Sturm for using Geist, another for proccing it. Meaning moving on average will actually net them more damage loss than not. They only have leeway, most of which is maintained by constantly spamming Geist or blowing FP on Kork for your mobility.
After all, most their skills require you in a straight line or one range in order to hurt you baring Orkham or Fels (which is a finisher anyhow.)
Just keep that in mind. As for the actual main topic at hand. I've nothing to add other than there's three geists. One that screws direct targeting skills, basic attack or not. One that screws actual basic attacks. One that only works if you weren't directly targeted. (See: Target the ground skills hit you but you're still applicable for it since you weren't targeted yourself.)
Even then, Geist is nothing more than a guessing game. You either go around it which can still sometimes lead to Drei popping or you have a 50/50 depending on what the person at hand is gonna do. Sometimes people just go up and normal basic solely out of fear of Geist. I'm not gonna say Geist is remotely in a good place right now, since i've only seen it either polarizingly be useless, be nothing more than "I want to keep sturm while being mobile" , or be polarizingly too useful. This is included in my own usage of it.
But i'll also say that at the bare minimum, it's still able to keep up the pressure of mind games and what not and that putting a cooldown on it means Boxers either need better sturm management, better mobility to actually use their skills without just shooting forward with Kork 24/7 if not Geist or waiting until near max level Sturm for Orkham pull-in or they just don't get a cooldown if they proc it (unless they really want to be more predictable and even more useless.)
RE: Geisting - Radioaction - 06-27-2020
As much as I want to agree with you, I can't. The simple fact is, you're complaining about a gimmick build, and trying to get a side-product nerfed which won't benefit anything, and only make a class that is already (pretty bad in the meta), even worse.
Boxer isn't great anymore, and Geist is actually really easy to bypass if you use at least two braincells. Either don't hit them, or use one of the many. MANY. Many, M A N Y skills that ignore Geist, yet shouldn't. Because it's actually really simple to realize what they're going to use. And if they still trick you, I don't really know what else to tell you other than.. Get good?
Basic Attack Geist only covers.. The basic attack action. That's it. The other Geist is quite literally "if it targets you directly, it counts". But almost every class has something that ignores this, and removes Geist. If you have this big of a hateboner for an already low-tier class that requires a very specific way of use to actually be good, and immense mind-games to land a proper Geist (along with luck), then use one of the many skills that makes their main gimmick worthless due to not being properly made.
Don't complain about Geist because you got destroyed by a poison-kiting build. Trust me, there's a lot worse.
RE: Geisting - Swiftkusura - 06-27-2020
You realize that I argued in favor of boxer as much as I argued against that, is it so bad to say I want geist to be good but not for kiting?
RE: Geisting - Lonestar - 06-27-2020
I don't think Geist is a problem anymore considering the newest classes and the newest reworks that appeared since Boxer got released has often more popular skills that ignore it rather than fitting one of the two Geists. Boxer itself is already on wheelchairs for being limited on movement and has braindead strats that counters it (any class can do the diagonal counter, and it becomes even worse when it's movement skills).
Applying a cooldown to Geist not only would put a bullet to Boxer's legs, but also make the class more predictable. From a 1/3 chance of Geist, it becomes a 50/50 chance with that cooldown, and I can't simply agree with that. This thread seems more a Hexer/Poison problem rather than Geist, because 6 tiles of movement really isn't alot compared to other movement skills with the same momentum cost.
Not to mention we have two races and two classes that counters poison as well.
RE: Geisting - WaifuApple - 06-28-2020
Geist doesn't need any sort of cooldown attributed to it, considering that otherwise it would force you to either have to sacrifice your Sturm at some point even for just playing the class (since outside of Geist and like two of their skills, movement itself is a detriment to them)
What I will say is the fact is that while geist is a move of prediction, there is so much counterplay to even having to play that game of prediction that it feels unfair. I want to see the move cover many, many more skills... but be tuned down in ability so that it's not a case of you getting extra momentum for it. That takes away both the really bad uses, and the really good uses... and makes it good while not being TOO good.
RE: Geisting - Kameron8 - 06-30-2020
I don't believe Geist is overbearing, even if it can at times be annoying. That said, I'm not overly fond of how Geist plays out in practice, where most people simply tap into abilities that ignore the guessing game entirely, or get cheesed and play rock paper scissors when their class can only play scissors.
In my honest opinion, the entire ability should be reworked from the ground up. Until then, it's better to leave it as is than to start messing with one of the most volatile types of abilities in the game: ones that shift action economy. Ironically, Boxer suffers the most from not having a viable option when faced against an opponent who Geisted away from them -- basic attacks with a 0% chance to hit aren't much of a candidate in rock, paper, scissors, and the whole suite of Boxer autohits loses to Geist Schritt (Zwei).
RE: Geisting - Snake - 06-30-2020
I never really see problems fighting a Boxer with Geist Schritt, unless I'm using Lantern Bearer. The fact nothing from LB ignores Geist leaves them at a massive disadvantage, the whole 'scissors-only' comparison from the buddy above applies quite blatantly in this scenario. Aside that, about any class in the game sports something to go through Geist Schritt, and this is good.
The power of Geist is making the enemy change their way they fight to adapt to the Boxer's cheese. Like Lone said, limit that from them and they become just stronger Monks with nothing special about them every 2 rounds.