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+--- Thread: Papilion Butterflies Make Me Sad (/showthread.php?tid=7053)
Papilion Butterflies Make Me Sad - Mr.SmileGod - 07-04-2020
The more I use them, the sadder I get. It is almost exclusively a detriment to use butterflies / fairies / snakes / etc in combat for many, many, MANY reasons. I get there being counterplay or whatever, but it's to the point that summoning a butterfly is more likely to help the enemy than to help you. Some examples of this are:
Butterflies can be used to negotiate with (spellthief)
Butterflies can be enemy climbed (DH cobra)
Butterflies can be used to gain momentum via crits (and fleur makes this worse)
Butterflies can, to my knowledge, be used to give a charge of Spirit Jar for healing
Butterflies can, to my knowledge, be defeated with a custom tome with a Vampiric seed for healing
Butterflies can save a sidecut / silcut user a lost attack from spirit pain if the butterfly is targeted first
Butterflies can, to my knowledge, accidentally trigger traps despite pretty much not being real
Butterflies can prevent the cooldown from using charge (by being landed next to)
Butterflies can trigger geist, giving a boxer extra momentum
Butterflies, to my knowledge, count for momentum recovery from Exaggerator
Butterflies CANNOT BE CONTROLLED TO PREVENT ANY OF THIS
Worst yet, the enemy can just skip their turn to make butterflies come to them-- making it easier to pull some of this off. There's more examples than just this, I just can't think of anymore off the top of my head. You could argue that this is just the 'risk of summoning butterflies', but when they're the only racial even half worth using in Papilion's arsenal, it gets very disappointing. Aposemagika isn't even worth using, and even if it was? It still summons more butterflies, causing all the issues listed above.
I wish I had a simple solution to make this a little less severe, but I just... don't. If anyone has suggestions, I'd love to hear them.
RE: Papilion Butterflies Make Me Sad - Autumn - 07-04-2020
An instant more gratifying way to rework butterflies is to remove their AI behavior immediately just just convert them into objects similar to Gravestone/Runes/Etc. as that would immediately take away literally all the gripes of invite insanity, not only do they do all of the above, but they ALSO fuck your turn order now, since the rule of Blue > Purple > Blue, then must needs be purple, butterflies will get a papilion double turned for even using them.
Another summon that punishes the summoner due to the new turn order system which is just sad.
If they're objects I would suggest they remain stationary but have their effects converted into an on-round effect, so papilions have a much stronger and more gratifying racial, cause as of currently papilions only have base stats and thats pretttttyyyyy much it.
I don't mean to sound overly-critical of them, but they're currently just not useful, even with the traits the only useful one is the fairy, which inflicts a pretty large charm level, and they're in no way ever worth summoning.
RE: Papilion Butterflies Make Me Sad - Mr.SmileGod - 07-04-2020
I was under the impression that the turn order thing was fixed with summons, but even then. I can definitely see them being turned into a destroyable item with, like... a 3 range diamond effect range or something? That'd definitely be cool to see. And maybe destroying them would give you confusion or something, to fit better with the illusion theme.
RE: Papilion Butterflies Make Me Sad - Perdition - 07-05-2020
(07-04-2020, 06:23 PM)Mr.SmileGod Wrote: I was under the impression that the turn order thing was fixed with summons, but even then. I can definitely see them being turned into a destroyable item with, like... a 3 range diamond effect range or something? That'd definitely be cool to see. And maybe destroying them would give you confusion or something, to fit better with the illusion theme.You get double turned essentially because if Pap goes, Opponent goes, Butterfly goes, the next turn will go to the opponent because the butterfly counts as the pap's side ending the round. The same 'side' cannot both end the round and start a new round.
RE: Papilion Butterflies Make Me Sad - Snake - 07-05-2020
They should be field objects, not mobs I agree.
RE: Papilion Butterflies Make Me Sad - Mr.SmileGod - 07-05-2020
I'm aware that double-turning is a thing, I just heard that certain mobs were no longer included in turn order stuff in that way due to a recent update. Entirely possible that it isn't the case. I'll probably go test for myself in a little while, but I'll take your word for it for now.