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+--- Thread: Scaling Monsters (/showthread.php?tid=7062)
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Scaling Monsters - Maksimum_Fire - 07-06-2020
PvE isn't totally blah, absolutely boring from the get go, but I think it gets kinda bland, eventually. Especially since people always need grinding for their new characters, or you need to grind to eventually hit that 15th legend extension some day in the future, or what have you. It can be pretty spiced up by having a friend with you, but- then-
...Where'd all my money go?
Even if you just have some level 1 lad hanging out way behind you in the back, not participating in your fight, your money per battle gets CHUNKED to an exceedingly low amount for having a friend in the party- and it doesn't really all go to the other person, either. You both get something like less than half, or worse, than you would grinding monsters alone. While this doesn't prevent you from gaining EXP at the same rate, which, arguably, is the most important part of grinding... it DOES make it feel kinda vexing to grind with someone, to jump in and help a newbie when you could just be grinding alone. Four-man team hunting, especially, just gets absolutely shot by this less-murai-per-fight effect, and honestly, I think that's the biggest reason we don't see people grinding IC very often.
Now, it's understandable that not everyone gets full money per fight, or else it'd just be. A ton of extra money in the economy, and stuff. May as well just tag along with some dude who's going grinding if he's not losing anything, right? But there's a solution that can be made to this, without compromising either side.
Scaling monsters up by number of player participants. Probably not by just level, since that could get out of hand easily, or would just make for exxxtra strong mercenaries for anyone using those- or, for people who the level doesn't matter that much for, it wouldn't really affect them. I think more dynamic changes to the monsters might be a bit better. My initial idea is this:
At two party members: 50% more enemies spawn. Enemies get a status that gives them +2 Mov. Miniboss prefixes become slightly more common.(25% chance+ per monster)
At three party members: Two party member effects, and enemies have a chance to spawn closer, as if they performed a back attack. If players back attack the monsters, then they instead spawn far away. Miniboss prefixes become much more common.(50% chance+ per monster)
At four party members: Two and Three party member effects, plus: Enemy spawns are increased by another 50% from base(for a total of 200%). Enemies get a status that makes them Regenerate half their level HP per round, for the first three rounds of combat. Miniboss prefixes become extremely common(75% chance+ per monster+guaranteed for at least one enemy per fight). Appropriate boss encounters for the area have a (5 times floor level)% chance to replace half the enemy spawns.
These are not set in stone ideas, just the things that came to mind as I came up with this post- I'm open to more suggestions from other players on the topic! But the idea would be to apply these boosts, and because of the ramp up in difficulty for playing as a group, there'd be no need to split up murai gain; instead making it an amount each player would gain, since more than one player will need to contribute for these ramped up encounters.
To make things a little more safe for people who need help grinding up through early levels- My suggestion would be that this 'party scaling' effect only happens for each member of a party that's within 15 levels of the highest level player. To demonstrate:
pewpew is level 60. If he teams up with timtim, level 30, party scaling will not go into effect. If he instead teams with Dwarf Lord, level 45, they will trigger party scaling. And, if Dwarf Lord teams up with timtim alone, because he's level 45 and timtim is level 30, they will trigger party scaling. If pewpew, dwarf lord, and timtim team up, then the fight receives rank 2 party scaling bonuses, since dwarf lord is within fifteen levels of pewpew, but timtim is not.
Alternatively, this could instead be a unique effect applied to Static dungeons, or it could be a new Prefix for dungeons; I'm personally in favor of it being something relatively easily accessible, but easy to dodge if you don't want to fight souped up monsters. Joining fights late wouldn't impact this system, is my thinking, and murai would be split as it is right now.
Boss fights would also need to receive some buffs, under this system, but I haven't come up with what changes would be best to make yet, so I'll probably think that over, see what other people think, then make an addendum here later today.
In summary, though:
This would make PvE quite a bit more challenging, interesting, and rewarding for playing in a group with other players. It might make things more difficult for low-level players looking to be grinded up fast by a high-level player, but some allowances can be made(the within 15 levels idea, or making it only statics that receive this effect) in order to make sure they get along fine.
One thing I can see being brought up in relation to this- "50%/100% more enemies? Isn't that just watered down crazy dungeon?" Kinda, I guess? But I imagine it'd stack with Crazy Dungeon effects if it was implemented as a dungeon modifier or standard system. I'm open to other ideas for how they could be boosted, too!
To get an easy gauge on what you think of this idea, even if you don't have much to add to the topic, I'd love to see some basic responses to the poll! For anyone who's interested in this idea, I'd love to hear your suggestions on how to buff bosses for multiple players, critiques on the system, and anything else you think might be important!
RE: Scaling Monsters - Fern - 07-06-2020
I have always, always wondered what it would be like if PVE got more challenging and rewarding the more party members you'd have. A lot of MMORPGs do it and SL2 feels kind of based off that concept, so I don't think it'd be farfetched if you encountered more interesting things and rewards for playing the game with other people, instead of grinding on your own.
I tend to grind on my own for money for the reason that I don't want to spend too long doing it with another person. The money cut can be pretty painful.
The way most of the MMORPGs I've played do it is that they give you an EXP and money multiplier, as well as more enemies and difficulty depending on the amount of people you have with you, rather than make you gain less money. Though they do apply a level range requirement in some cases, IIRC.
SL2's economy is too far gone to salvage at this point, probably. But giving a bonus for playing the game with other people is always good in my book, because it encourages people gathering rather than going off to do things solo because it's frequently more rewarding and faster.
RE: Scaling Monsters - HexGirlBestGirl - 07-06-2020
While I have nothing to add. I only care personally about two things.
Grinding alone only being superior if you're faster due to the value-to-output ratio. I grind faster, so I can potentially outdo a party of 2/3/4 in overall gain within less time which makes it a preferred method.
Grinding with others being superior and a better option objectively so in any other scenario. I am innately rewarded for partying with people, being fast only makes it better. Promotes being with others.
That is all I will add onto this thread until I get more detailed concrete info/knowledge of what I really want.
RE: Scaling Monsters - Maksimum_Fire - 07-06-2020
AS A QUICK, BRIEF ADDENDUM- I had a suggestion from a friend that, in order to prevent new players from getting too bogged down by this change, it should only go into effect on BDPs/Statics of a certain level or higher. I think 40 is a good place, since that's around when you get to maxing out classes, but it's not too low to make it difficult to find a dungeon with this sort of effect. This still lets veteran players freshen up their experience with teammates a little better, and still makes grinding for money in groups a lot less impossible, since if you're grinding for money you'll be going to high level dungeons anyway! I think this would be a good addition to the system regardless of what other limiters are made.
RE: Scaling Monsters - GenixSS113 - 07-06-2020
Feasibly, the only method of making money would be packing a lot of luck and trying to get lucky with loot drops (outside of 10*'s), breaking open every possible chest you come across for material wealth/equipment, or just doing a minigame like Treasure hunting/diving. I think adding more substantial gains to the BDP's would make them worthwhile to do after a certain level (Like level 45 or so). Like how some mmo's have an end of dungeon gacha: Either equipment from a set loot table, a box of materials, more murai at the end of a dungeon, or have that very low % chance of getting a unique item (Circumvent abuse of the system by having a kill requirement for said dungeon). Stuff like that would be exciting in my opinion. I'd certainly want to do BPD's with incentives like that in earnest.
RE: Scaling Monsters - Karidan - 07-06-2020
I like the idea. I don't have too much to add on the exact numbers, but I feel like it would be a good change if everything was balanced properly.
I've gotten a lot of good IC experiences out of doing dungeons, and I don't think that their sole purpose should be just for money and items. I think an addition like this would knock back some of the "Doing it alone is faster and more efficient" mindset that's come with the territory, making the group experience, and doing the dungeons in character, a lot more appealing since it won't be chunking a whole lot of your progress
RE: Scaling Monsters - Senna - 07-06-2020
Okay so, I see some of these, and I can safely say, this will be fun for the first two weeks, then people would go back to how things have been on week three. That's normally how it goes.
Let it stay standard for the time. I believe your suggestion should just be a new dungeon tag whereas with that tag, while mobs will be stronger, you get better rewards and so on for being in a party and whatnot base on who does what and how many X player did. Like an MVP system.
Yes, I do believe there should be a little multiplier to money and Exp X dungeon for the suggest difficulty spike.
Having like mini-dungeon events is pretty good as well, like some MMOs whereas it will keep you on your toes. You'll never know when an event would pop up and steamroll.
PVE is fun if you're new though once you've played the game long enough, it becomes predictable. Of course, there are some intense movements when mobs do something you weren't expecting but that normally happens in the boss rush.
To make PvE fun again, Dev would need to add a better mob AI system and give the monster more than 1-2 attacks. THAT would make PvE a lot more fun.
All I can rumble about for now, just remember that its still RP so we can't limit too much.
RE: Scaling Monsters - Maksimum_Fire - 07-06-2020
Yee, Genix, that's how it is right now. That's why I'm suggesting that with these difficulty modifiers, and possible some additional ones, the money split penalty could either be removed, or greatly reduced, for people in parties- to make it a little more viable. I like your other ideas too, and would love to see some implementation of systems like that!
That's a big part of what I'm thinking, Karidan! Making that IC grinding experience really feel impactful; or even if you're OOC, if you're having a good time with your friends, you don't feel like you're getting nothing done grind-wise! That's something that's important to me.
Bless, Fern, I don't have anything to add to your comment- I really appreciate your words on this!!! That's the exact kinda feeling I have that drove me to make this post, so we can try and make grinding a more pleasant experience as a group activity, try and make endgame a little more fresh, all that good stuff!! Thank you!
And thank you for showing up to post, too, Det! I appreciate it!
Senna: I totally get where you're coming from on this; long:term, I don't know if it would wind up changing that much? But I feel like giving people the option to grind in a group without lobotomizing their monetary gain would at least be a little bit beneficial. I like the idea of making it a dungeon modifier, even if that winds up just being a test phase sort of thing! Thank you for your feedback!!! <3
Does anyone have any ideas for what kind of modifiers could be applied to bosses(actual spatial core bosses, not surprise bosses), for groups? Extra summoned enemies? Maybe giving the boss(only the boss!) Accel if there are 3 or more people? What do you think?
RE: Scaling Monsters - Kazzy - 07-07-2020
I fully support anything that makes the grind into a group social activity. That's all I've got to add to this, because others've already said what I could but better.
RE: Scaling Monsters - NICC - 07-07-2020
Cracks Knuckles Alright cupcakes, get ready for NICC's hot takes which might not be so hot, since the idea is on par with my own mindset. My dear friend Kit, Maksim, whatever you would call him; Now! Let me start to chisel down the kinks of this system.
Party scaling. And what it does for you: It would create incentive to party up! You might ask- "Well NICC, what if we're all level one and creating superpowered ANTAGONISTS for the future? Wouldn't all these mini-boss, added monsters, and regen give us a vewwy vewwy hawd time? uwu." WHY YES, and this is why I second the idea of having it be 40+. There's really no reason to have those bonuses from the beginning. All you want are those juicy, juicy exps. Which we most certainly get plenty of.
NOW! Having a prefix would ALSO be a good idea. Some absolute gangsta sees there's a BPD 2: Electric Boogaloo(With Friends) On the map and/or their handy dandy PDA. They voice it to their homies/randoms that are stationed around Sigrogana. Boom, that BDP is a hot spot for potential RP or player activity in general.
Now, atop this idea. It would make our certain influx of newer players like I love oh so much. But that's beside the point, back on track. -- Newer players usually enjoy the combat aspect of SL2. Why not introduce the idea of roleplay where they're most comfortable?!
Now, you might say. "This is a little off topic NICC." Certainly not, the incentive of dungeons with friends/others is the main meat and potatoes. Which for the ultimate goal of making Sigrogana Legend 2 a more enjoyable and rewarding experience for everyone.
TLDR; I second the idea, and downright believe there are 0 downsides to such. Having it as a prefix would spark player interaction more so. Everything else is me rambling.