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+--- Thread: The Irony of Change (/showthread.php?tid=7398)
The Irony of Change - LiefDeltora - 11-17-2020
Greetings my fellow SL2 players.
Some of you may know me, for better or worse, but I believe presentations aren't important in regards to the matter at hand.
But Lief? What in the hell are you talking about? You guessed it. State of the game!
I have been watching pretty much all decisions and changes that happened in the past months.
Well, this is less about the 'state of the game', and more about what I truly believe with no real restraints to my words, no passive aggressiveness which by God, is a big thing within the posts I see here that try to go around the problems instead of saying it already. Perhaps people are afraid of saying things and want to look good in the eyes of others, being it admins or their friends, but that is none of my concern.
The game has no content for roleplay, and rewards the lack of such.
That was one of the topics I brought on DM’s with Dev, and some players as well, but never really delved a lot into it. That by itself, is one of the main reasons why I distanced myself from the game, until I finally stopped playing it.
If we compare Sigrogana to any other RP game, being it Eternia, Age of Gezo, any of the hundreds of Naruto’s ripoffs and even some Dragon Ball based games of Byond, Sigrogana Legends 2 does NOT reward Roleplay.
1 - You can be OOC, forever.
The game already has issues when it comes to finding people to roleplay with, which is already a major problem by itself. The ban of OOC corner was a good move, that much I can admit, but people being ‘OOC in places’ is completely nonsensical.
![[Image: HVL7xtOM_DN-iiS-9mbPuLoLi09C4d1l7IWY5akl...ZWZlBRAEtR]](https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/HVL7xtOM_DN-iiS-9mbPuLoLi09C4d1l7IWY5aklNPNNYtsC3RZz2J-kIcIKERcoTYm0cQjfxzC87VQf8kDR0b0cHBxRjOmlFO5tzz4a1oAxa-zHjudHGTvaFlEV4sZWZlBRAEtR)
By being OOC you can enjoy the only true content of the game, which are the dungeons. Tell me, what else do you have to do in Sigrogana other than ‘grind’? And please, saying that RP by itself is a reward is a lie. Discord RP exists for that, if you really were looking for it.
2 - Mechanical Advantage > Being IC
Some people, that I truly respect, do bring their characters IC before powergrinding them into oblivion. But that’s it, the one true content of the game is that you get stronger from both IC and OOC perspective, by simply doing BDPs. Everything should be IC, like those hardcore characters were doing a month or two ago.
3 - PVP over Everything
Many of you, or perhaps even most of you, stick and play the game for the PvP. You either really enjoy the FF Tactics feel it gives, or you just find it overall fun for whatever reason. And that is something that converges the prior points into.. This.
Your build, your min-max, your almost everything is about how well you can win against a player, and your IC barely even matters when it comes to the classes.
Ghosts are literally using blood to fight.
Hexers utilize the bad emotions to increase and utilize their power.
(Side note to the obscenity that is utilizing Boxer / Hexer, how does that make sense to you?)
I am sure we can find other examples, but do we really see people roleplaying the canonical things of said fighting styles? If you RP it as ‘something else’ I really think some common ground on what truly is IC and what isn’t should be.
TL DR:
The game is a MMO with an ‘Emote’ button slightly stapled on top of it.
Like FF XIV or WoW but with less things to do.
You may now salt in the comments if so desired.
RE: The Irony of Change - Mr.SmileGod - 11-18-2020
NGL, I feel targeted a little for my use of Boxer / Hexer. It's a great class combo, and I ICly found my way to it after a lot of trial and error with my character. I describe it as enhancing my physical body to give me more capacity for focus, and boxing just happened to be the most enjoyable of the martial arts classes. I do use negativity as a catalyst with Hexer. And if anyone ever asked for a pure IC fight, I'd indulge them.
I don't really see the point of listing it other than a 'I don't like it'. Other than that, I don't really see banning being OOC entirely being a viable option in game like this. With the addition of the new applications forum, you CAN be rewarded for your IC. I recently was, in fact. It may need a bit more advertising so more people realize it's an option, but steps are being taken.
RE: The Irony of Change - Balor - 11-18-2020
I don't think this should be taken as a personal insult towards anyone. As I doubt the post is targeted explicitly at any specific individual. I feel as though the suggestions here make sense but also can be resolved in time.
1. I have no issue with people being OOC. Sometimes they don't want to RP, but want to play the game. Or chat with friends. The OOC corner being removed genuinely removed one of the few gathering places for PEOPLE rather than characters. For all it's flaws the convenience of being able to say hi to people 10 minutes before bed was one I don't get anywhere else. If the world had more for us to do, then OOC wouldn't be a problem.
2. There isn't really any means to stop this. However it is a cultural thing, you either break off to squares to RP without fear of PVP, or you go to the arenas where PVP is almost mandatory, meaning that people arms race their builds so as to not have their IC be demeaned by someone who is the weakest in their clan, or the runt of the litter, or 14 years old with a cursed sword. This one would be resolved more easily if people watched Wrestling. Genuinely.
3. So long as your theme remains in line with your classes then I'm gucci with it. But there is a habit of people dropping thematically appropriate builds for meta combinations when their original is nerfed. Watch wrestling, sell a little for people.
There are issues here, but so long as lore compendiums come to exist in the near future as Dev has mused over. More tools to encourage public antagonists with conflict rules, and some genuine concern for the merit of others characters. Then we'll improve. If not, then I don't know what to say. There are issues here at play that can't be simply resolved by enforcing mechanics or enforcing IC.
A lot of your concerns would reflect people being more considerate of other people. Or their own characters.
RE: The Irony of Change - Miller - 11-18-2020
I can agree that SL2 currently doesn't award roleplaying too much although there has definitely been some strides to amend that in recent times. As for your other points, I'll lay down my own personal opinion on the matter. (Which is completely fine to disagree with, I get where you're coming from.)
1) Regarding OOC
Just to clarify, the OOC corner was not banned but rather relocated to a small zone a ways off from where most players congregated. As for being OOC itself, I don't see it as a detriment, mainly because if it was barred, you'd likely see lower player counts or even more people far away from your eyes reach. As someone who personally tends to be OOC for various reasons of my own, I don't actually have too much trouble with finding RP if I actively search for it; it has gotten better in recent times aside from a few dead hours here and there.
People tend to go OOC as well for actions that they wouldn't consider to make sense for said character ICly, IE: BDP Diving on a character who has sworn off the act, et cetera. This is partially a result of mechanics having a strong influence on IC.
2) Mechanical Advantage
I feel like this is just an unfortunate downside of how the game works, if you want to represent a character who you believe should be an experienced fighter from the get go, you're forced to go through the ol' grind loop to 1-60. Not to mention, doing BDPs and getting a full clear and suddenly having a massive leap in power doesn't make much sense from an IC perspective; which often leads to people grinding to 60 and purposefully going with a suboptimal/bad build to represent a weaker character. There's definitely charm in making everything IC, hardcore is proof of that; but when you repeat the same thing dozens of times, it gets stale.
3) PVP
Most people just see classes as a baseline to help represent what they're doing rather than it actually being the class itself outside of a few notable exceptions (VA/Priest), otherwise we'd get more people commenting on 'Wow that's an Eclair La'croix!' than we already have. I do think people often prioritize being practical way more over what would fit ICly though, mainly because they want their character to be an experienced fighter or not a total push over. Unfortunate side effect of the game's design in my opinion.
Closer
This probably came off as a jumbled mess, but to put it briefly; most of these issues tend to stem from the fact that SL2 is both a 'Game' and 'Roleplaying Game' without a strict focus on either. Mechanics tend to bleed heavily into IC as a result of this, which is unfortunately one of my biggest gripes with SL2 as an RP game.
take your free punch
RE: The Irony of Change - Shujin - 11-18-2020
can't believe I am the only one who hugged.
*shrug* still something I have said since ages and I distance myself from that state. My IC always came first and the build was to supplement it, and I often choose a weaker option in favour of it ICly fitting more, while trying a good blance between gameplay and RP. and thats why I also happen to always get fairly "Unique" builds, because they are not optimal.
Back then it didn't matter either cause you had a chance to take whatever and MAKE it work. it just took sometimes more work than with simpler options and it was widely much more frowned upon if someone used well known OP combos.
RE: The Irony of Change - Perdition - 11-18-2020
I’m confused as to what the point is about builds and choosing for “IC” as opposed to power. It’s difficult for AAA games to get balance right. This is just a byond game being worked on by one person. It’s going to be unbalanced, probably wildly so, and especially when it comes to 1v1s. I don’t see a point in begrudging that your “IC” build will be weaker than someone going meta. That’s the nature of any game with pvp in it. There’s always a best option. There are always weaker options. Skill can overcome difference in raw power between builds but sometimes it doesn’t. That’s just how games work.
Now, since this is also an RP game, that might not feel the best. Maybe you want a strong character with a build fitting for it but that build happens to be on the weaker side of things. That’s why I personally advocated for mechanical advantages that can be applied for or as a reward for roleplay. Ultimately I think that’s the only way you’re going to be able to alleviate that issue. Playing something “worse” can be pulled off better if you’re given the tools to do so. If you deserve them.
The reason that this is ideal is because pvp is here to stay. Honestly, I wouldn’t want it gone. Fully RPing fights out is both a long process and one that leads to salt a lot of the time because two people want their characters to win and they have to determine which one is going to lose. pvp rectifies this and it’s why it’s a popular option in other bigger RP games like Eternia and DBRP variants. Now, if you and someone else agree to fully RP your fight out then by all means. But that option can’t be forced. Which loops back to my point about mechanical advantages being something that should be rewarded for roleplay.
Other than that, sometimes you have to remember that at the end of the day this is a game. One that is unbalanced, and that you can stick to IC and that’s perfectly fine, but that also means you’ll have to eat some losses if you’re in a combat situation and the other person just has the better build. That sucks but that is the nature of this game.
RE: The Irony of Change - WaifuApple - 11-18-2020
I cannot do much except echo the responses of some of the people here. There are reasons for people to be OOC and such, and I cannot imagine that removing the ability to would do anything good for the game. You'd either get people doing it anyway in secret, not playing whatsoever because they'd likely say that the game has been ruined for them, or other such things - there doesn't seem to really be a positive outcome to changing that.
Truth be told there's not really anything I see changing about the state of PvP and how builds affect things, because it takes one bad egg building only for meta and you drag others who just want to be relevant to stories (which will usually end up including a need for a build at least somewhere down the line depending on which kindof storyline) right down with them, as they try to keep up. You'd find yourself at a disadvantage building solely for IC unless your IC happened to line up pretty damn well with a build that slaughters things and people. That is... inevitably unavoidable, and the approach of the player on that is really... up to them, I suppose?
On reading this thread, I believe there is one key takeaway I could have gotten from this that hasn't been expressed before with little we can really do about it, and that it's that Drezdin really wants you all to watch wrestling. People are very much free to watch wrestling if they want to.
RE: The Irony of Change - Noxid - 11-18-2020
I'll be honest I've never been a big fan of people being able to run around OOC but it is what it is.
You shouldn't try to separate Mechanical Advantage and IC though. The mechanics are there to represent your character's abilities. The issue with people using meta combinations though isn't the fact they are using them, it's what character they use them on. A super strong tanky build works really well for some big bad evil dude. But is it really fitting to have your four foot redtail school girl who does nothing but engage in slice of life RP have one of the strongest builds in the game? Yes
Also I 100% agree with drez on watching wrestling. This isn't a meme, they are the kings of pretend fighting and telling stories at the same time. That's basically what we are doing on SL2
Also I'm gonna punch you since you offered. Sorry.
RE: The Irony of Change - Balor - 11-18-2020
(11-18-2020, 11:21 AM)Noxid Wrote: I'll be honest I've never been a big fan of people being able to run around OOC but it is what it is.
You shouldn't try to separate Mechanical Advantage and IC though. The mechanics are there to represent your character's abilities. The issue with people using meta combinations tough isn't the fact they are using them, it's what character they use them on. A super strong tanky build works really well for some big bad evil dude. But is it really fitting to have your four foot redtail school girl who does nothing but engage in slice of life RP have one of the strongest builds in the game? Yes
Also I 100% agree with drez on watching wrestling. This isn't a meme, they are the kings of pretend fighting and telling stories at the same time. That's basically what we are doing on SL2
Also I'm gonna punch you since you offered. Sorry.
To expand upon the point about Wrestling. There is an art to it where they choreograph fights where their opponents are allowed to look strong even if they might lose. Or willingly look weak to sell for an opponent that realistically stands no chance. It allows everyone to get something from combat, or even tense social scenarios. It also encourages people to perhaps try out more interesting combos rather than what is the most optimal. Or to let people express themselves more openly.
From Wrestling Matches themselves to Cutting Promos. SL2 and the PVP scene could learn how to buy into one another more often the same way Wrestlers and Wrestling Audiences do.
RE: The Irony of Change - Jupiter_Storm - 11-18-2020
I can't really be arsed to go into a long one. So I'm just going to respost some of my old stuff from Dev's Thread. Maybe if I spam Fallenharn ideas enough I'll win the spar.
Quote:2) Character Progression - Actually, I agree with Dev's thoughts on how this would work. It solves a very clear-cut issue with regards to how the entry-level requirements for RP are viewed. Everybody knows you can roleplay without being level 60 with a full build, so reinforcing that point is irrelevant when the practice still persists. There is objectively no disadvantage as far as Roleplaying is concerned in managing character growth with separate Level Caps with individual developmental requirements. The only people this would negatively affect are those seeking to race a new character build to 60 - as well as Newer Players, which in turn can be solved by having a channel in-game dedicated to character growth with tips for Newer Players and contact information.
This is already being done, as evidenced by the Hardcore community. For all the negative shade it gets, the Hardcore SL2 community was founded under the pretense of meaningful character development, with a system of clearly-defined rules for progression in place (such as Journal Entries, Mentoring Requirements and Event Attendance). The moderators for this community have been very active in managing this and have consistently kept it open to all players.
And.
Quote:Now, the Proposal:
Will keep this brief and concise. I cannot link actual examples of this, because it would probably in some way violate the privacy of its users and I refuse to shill my own pages. However, a perfect example of what I'm going to outline - browse at your leisure:
https://www.roleplay.me/
The problem you're looking at in terms of community accessibility is that people find it too difficult to get in touch with other stories that they might enjoy, or otherwise encounter people they might click with who are not roleplaying within common areas. This issue proliferates when you consider timezones, work schedules, and inactivity periods. Nobody wants to stand around or run around for hours on end in the hope that they will encounter some random world RP. I mean, some do, I have done it, but it's a masochistic obsession.
Here's how this would work:
1. The modification would be made to the Member Lists and Profiles either on this forum or a separate site with a different engine capable of handling this format if it's not possible here.
2. Each community member can 'create' characters on their Profile - i.e. either separate links to sub-profiles for each character (in Blog format) or a summary list of their characters, with a picture and brief biography.
3. These member profiles are also assigned specific keywords (chosen from a checklist or drop-down menu) displayed as their OOC notes. Detailing their Roleplaying Interests (Themes, i.e. Horror / Adventure / Comedy / Slice of Life), their Writing Style (Casual / Para / Narrative), and their Preferred Locations. And anything else you can think of.
4. Other members can then Search the Member List for those people who share similar interests to them, and browse their profiles / characters to check out their descriptions and any Stories that they are currently part of. Then Direct Message those people to get in touch with them.
5. Optionally, you could also incorporate Laplace.net into this, with some characters perhaps having their own In-Character Contact Methods if that's how they prefer to meet new people. They could include their character's Laplace.net ID, their fighting style, their adventuring focus, their goals, and their likes/dislikes. The same as above, except the DM could then be IC instead.
Do both of these. All your problems will go away.
In the meantime, those of us with vision and the gumption to be the driving force behind the changes we want to see will continue the utterly thankless task of putting out Roleplay Feed-Troughs.
Seriously, guys. This shit takes months to set up. At least -chew- your food before you swallow it. k thanks