Aquamancer's Current Issues - Printable Version +- NEUS Projects (https://neus-projects.net/forums) +-- Forum: Sigrogana Legend 2 (OOC) (https://neus-projects.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=8) +--- Forum: Balance Fu (https://neus-projects.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=11) +--- Thread: Aquamancer's Current Issues (/showthread.php?tid=7622) Pages:
1
2
|
Aquamancer's Current Issues - Latto - 01-17-2021 Aquamancer has been out for 3 weeks now and by now enough time has passed to see that there's been quite a few issues in terms of skill useability and gameplay. Let's start off with the central point that's leading to the class feeling clunky/lackluster: resources and (later on in the post) cooldowns. Most classes operate on a 2 resource system (FP and Momentum) with a few operating with a third (Feathers for Firebird, Ki for Monk, etc.) while also having their skill usage limited by cooldown timers for more powerful spells. For aquamancers the third resource is: Crests
The foundation of Aquamancer skills, the crests! Intended to be a resource to be managed and have interactions with skills to be impactful, right now the best use for them is to just... hit 9 stacks immediately and use it to burst people down while avoiding casting anything that uses them. Aquamancer is supposed to be a pseudo-support class with a variety of utility skills for the team, so why is everyone just playing them as burst mages and not utilizing the majority of their spells? The simple answer is efficiency and management. Aquamancer currently only has 3 ways to 'generate' crests. Casting spells for 1 crest each, crest surge and Aquae Mastery (which gives a 3/6 boost at battle start if Aquamancer is main or main+sub.) Other classes that use a third resource like VA/Monk/Firebird all have a passive resource regeneration along with an more active one (Frayed Voidgates/Power Up/Boon of Apus.) Aquamancers are currently forced to use their spells in order to generate their resource due to not having a turn by turn regen like the other classes, which leads to obvious issues like not being able to use your other class's spell or actions due to wanting to get it to 9 ASAP. Now while this was intended as an obvious drawback to the class, this is also where another issue lies. When playing Aquamancer, I choose which skills to use or take based on what I call 'crest efficiency.' Because Aquamancers are always trying to maintain that sweet 9 crest stack in order to gain that huge boost in damage, they have to use actions that are worth the momentum and FP drain in order to stack it up and decide if it's worth losing the stacks to boost other skills. By default, 3 momentum is equal to 1 crest as a baseline for gaining crests. Currently skills that consume crests are not worth using and losing the damage boost a majority of the time to the point where it feels like a detriment to cast them. Meanwhile a bunch of other skills simply aren't worth using to stack in the first place due to having weak effects. Let's look through Aquamancer's spells and their usability. These are the go to spells that an Aquamancer will find themselves using:
In contrast let's look at the unusable ones and their major issues.
Flooded Water | Storm Calling | Support Spells Flooded Water: another key mechanic for Aquamancers, these cause halved movement in tiles it covers along with having interactions with several spells. Currently they are only generated by Aquamancer spells and last 3 rounds (unless extended by Storm Calling.) Spells that interact with flooded water tiles can be replaced by dark water tiles in exchange for different effects. The current problem with flooded water is the duration and maintenance versus reward of having them on the field, which also causes issues with spells that interact with them (which is why dark water tiles are usually much better for such spells, due to being both easier to generate via Black Bubbles and lasting much longer with Altermancy talent.)
Currently the 3 spells which can generate flooded waters are Water Dragon (very usable), Wild Waterfall (very unusable) and Dead Sea.
This directly affects the set up options for spells that rely on flooded water, the most common one being Dancing Water, which in itself is a decent ability. For flooded water Aquamancers, the maintenance of these tiles is often too troublesome to actually use outside of the occasional zoning or unless paired up with another Aquamancer that can help maintain the tiles for you (but often times it's better for them to just use regular damage spells to burst things too.. especially since fights tend to move around.) Which leads to the only way to increase duration on flooded water tiles:
Storm Calling
One of Aquamancer's three invocations, it is mandatory for teamwide support Aquamancy. It is the only way to extend the duration of water tiles, refreshing their duration for as long as the storm is maintained.
Now there's quite a few issues with Call Storm as a whole. It is bad in terms of crest generation/efficiency, giving a whopping 1 crest for 9 momentum and at crest levels 6 or higher, consumes 6 crests to refund 3 momentum and allow for a 7 momentum/1 turn casting time. This many resources to extend the duration of your water tiles by 5 turns with a minor water attack buff is never worth it for any sort of water tile setup. Because the main usage of Call Storm is for its effect of changing single target support spells to party wide ones, let's look at the issues with support spells and the effort it takes to use them versus the reward.
This (along with other support spells) is also where you will start to clearly see a recurring theme of severe resource inefficiency in comparison to rewards. Let's assume you are casting for the base spell at 0 crests to buff your party early on. That's 9 momentum for Call Storm and 3 momentum for a total of 12 momentum for a low scaling 3 turn duration. If you're a mono aquamancer starting the round with 6 crests? That's still 10 momentum and 6 crests spent for a weak 3 turn buff. Want to extend it to 5 turns as an aqua main with mastery + other sub class? 12 momentum and 3 crests (remember a crest takes 3 momentum to gain on average!) at minimum. Along with the previous issues, Brine Blade comes with another arbitrary 3 round cooldown, so you can't even cast it on multiple people as a single target spell if you don't want to spend all that momentum to invoke and buff two people (or, even if it didn't have a cooldown, to spend all those crests on the two spells at higher crest levels.) A possible way to make this spell better is to remove the cooldown and increase the base duration to 5 turns with crest consumption increasing the % scaling of the buff (maybe in addition to a 2 turn duration extend or something along those lines.) This way it isn't completely worthless at lower levels (since you can increase the buff from bad to mediocre scaling with crests) while still giving a solid buff at higher levels (going from mediocre buff to good.)
This is one of the spells that is theoretically very good because of how powerful its effect is but most of the time, you won't be able to find a good time to use it. It has a 5 turn cooldown which means you're probably only going to get it out once a fight, so you usually want it at 9 crests in order to be able to get the cleanse for the whole team. But because it takes so many turns to set up (at least 3 whole rounds with 6 crest call storm-> crest surge -> purifying aquae) by the time you set it up and at the ready, the status effects will have already run their course (since most last 3 rounds) or you'll find yourself forever holding onto your crests and unable to cast any other spells that consume them (because spells that consume crests cost at least 3 of them which at the minimum costs 2 turns to replenish out of the 3 round status effect duration average and bars yourself out of using any other class' spells during the meantime.)
Compare this to Priest's Gentle Torrent, which has a damage component, cleanses everything it passes over for 1 duration and only has a 3 turn cooldown, or even a regular cleanse potion- both are more forgiving on usage and work on multiple status effects without the huge set up time.
Other Call Storm Issues: Hitting higher storm levels is basically never going to happen because on average you'll be spending 2/5 turns of the storm duration casting the extension in itself. It is also overwritten by another Aquamancer casting it, even if their level is lower than yours, so you can't have a team of aquamancers power up a single storm to utilize. The idea of a single Aquamancer on your team using most of their time maintaining for the rest of the party seems funny but for obvious reasons is not optimal or something you ever want to do at all, especially due to the current strength of the support spells it's supposed to enable (maybe if you want to for whatever reason have a flooded water extension bot for tentacles but dark waters already does that better.)
Other Minor Skill Gripes:
TLDR:
This leads to most Aquamancers simply always going straight for 9 crests to get the power spike from Crest Break and abusing the 20/30% elemental pierce with Indignant Idol as a burst mage. Since generating crests is impossible outside of using Aquamancer skills, this also locks you out of using other class skills in the turns you spend charging. Since you only get 2 actions per turn on average, it takes a minimum of 5 rounds of using only Aquamancer skills to get back to 9 crests outside of Crest Surge. Other invocations (including future ones for balance issues) further exacerbate this problem by taking 9 momentum in exchange for 1 crest and thusly have to be worth using enough to ignore the lack of crests.
Aquamancer being marketed as a pseudo-"support" class is invalidated due to having lackluster utility skills with heavy setup and cooldown time while offering nothing outstanding compared to other support classes. A majority of Aquamancer skills feel terrible to cast and feel like they're kept weak and restricted solely to have the Crest/setup system be put to use (and even their crested versions feel mediocre AT BEST.)
TLDR;TLDR: crest break water pillar / water dragon / jet stream 3 button aquamancer gameplay stronk unga bunga
RE: Aquamancer's Current Issues - Snake - 01-18-2021 I'm typing with my feet because my hands are busy clapping. 100% great observation about the class. Aquamancer's just Evoker's wet dream. No pun intended. With some 'fluffy support'. RE: Aquamancer's Current Issues - Kazzy - 01-19-2021 Ice spell ain't useless. Dead sea ain't bad if you run it with Servant of a Dark Authority, Drowning Chant is meant for gish Aquamancers. I could go further in depth but lack the desire or brain power to do a full dissection and response. RE: Aquamancer's Current Issues - Autumn - 01-19-2021 There's some niche uses to Cold Splash and Drowning Chant that mostly involve the soaked status and a heron feather respectively, but for the most part this thread has a lot of points I generally agree with, the class doesn't feel very good when it comes down to how undersold a lot of the class' supportive qualities are, damage wise its pretty much fine where its at, Cold Splash/Jet Stream/Water Pillar all do some pretty good damage, its invocations are pretty mehhhh honestly, I would appreciate if more of its invocations got the "Call Storm" aquae crest effect onto it, so that they could be action economy efficient. Lastly I will mention that Purifying Aquae is one of my biggest gripes with the class, what I thought would be a cleanse potion in a skill would pretty much cement the class wasn't actually the case, and ends up being generally not that useful, more details can be found in my thread on that subject: https://neus-projects.net/forums/showthread.php?tid=7561 Anyways, like above mentioned, Cold Splash isn't useless when paired with something like Water Pillar, given that its an on-demand immobilize whenever you need it, it also is a 1 point wonder skill for 2 of those reasons, same with Steam Sear, since it can target a Soaked or Frozen ally and cure those statuses, its also a 1 point wonder that works pretty well on its own. Dead Sea could use some damage I think, but its immediately deployed dark water tiles with Servant of a Dark Authority, which has some niche uses. Generally the class needs some buffs overall, it doesn't feel very great, kinda like release-Firebird. RE: Aquamancer's Current Issues - Miller - 01-20-2021 I do feel like Cold Splash is powerful in it's own right when paired with the soaked status for the immobilize, yeah. But the main issue lies within the fact that you generally want to avoid dropping from 9 crests for the -10%/20% ele res attached to Crest Break and Cold Splash gets rid of /ALL/ crests for the sake of a /chance/ to inflict frozen. This essentially locks the spell's use until you're either under 9 crests or absolutely need the frozen.* If the crest cost was reduced in some manner and/or the frozen was a guaranteed inflict or had a bonus infliction chance, it'd be a more than fine skill to use regularly. RE: Aquamancer's Current Issues - Neus - 01-21-2021 There seems to be some misconception about Cold Splash. It doesn't remove any crests unless the infliction is successful. RE: Aquamancer's Current Issues - alyssiaerend - 01-21-2021 I still feel that Cold Splash can be reworked to use less crests, 8 crests for frozen is just not very reasonable since you could easily break the status, wasting 24m worth of crests. RE: Aquamancer's Current Issues - Miller - 01-21-2021 I do also feel like Aquamancer should have a skill similar to 'Suppress Ki' as well, it'd solve the issue of being soft-locked out of specific spells until you need their crest effect. RE: Aquamancer's Current Issues - Perdition - 01-21-2021 As stated in the OP, the 'optimized' way so far of playing Aquamancer is avoiding spells that consume crests as much as you can outside of Call Storm if you want to lean into the supportive aspects of the class more. Crest Break is such a good passive so losing 9 crest LV after you've achieved it feels really bad. A crest use toggle as mentioned in the post above me would go a long way. RE: Aquamancer's Current Issues - Latto - 02-23-2021 So enough time has gone past once again for me to provide my thoughts on the most recent Aquamancer changes: >Purifying Aquae is now usable with the reduction to 6 crests for its effect activation but its change to main class was a nerf since there is still nothing really worth taking Aqua main class for and thus limits its usage. I personally don't think it's worth being and really, REALLY wish it wasn't changed to a main class skill due to it being so situational in the first place and the amount of time needed to set it up even with the changes. >Wild Waterfall change was kind of in the right direction but didn't actually address any of the issues in that its effects/damage are really mediocre/not worth the momentum and FP so it's still unusable. >Brine Blade crest consumption from 3 to 2 crests was an incredibly small buff that also didn't really change much for the spell (setup, mediocre duration, mediocre damage buff with the current mage/autohit meta and I still think it shouldn't have a cooldown for what it does.) >Refreshing Flow change was good! I think it's in a fine spot now and doesn't have to be touched any further. The other issues in my original post still stand since nothing else was addressed during the update. |