Hikage and Tsukikage - Printable Version

Hikage and Tsukikage - Printable Version

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Hikage and Tsukikage - Snake - 02-04-2021

They've been changed before, but after extensively testing them I don't think STR is a status that should be appended to daggers at all, especially the ones mentioned in the thread. The reason?

Quote:Hikage/Tsukikage
11 Base Power
80% Base Accuracy
5% Base Critical

75% STR/40% GUI

Like this you can't make any use of STR unless you reduce your VIT to nothing and pray the HP bonus from STR hangs in there, which most likely won't, and even then, you'll only make use of 75% of the investment.

To use these daggers you need to max as much as possible your SKI/LUC, because its base stats are extremely punishing to build towards, which leaves them sub-optimal when compared to the likes of Vorpal Fang, Dancing Shiv, Dagger (Yes, the 1*, mostly due to its potential), Akibanko and finally, the most used, Seiryuu Tessen which not only has a bigger scaling, but does a total of 100% Elemental ATK bonus damage that ignores protection.

All the daggers mentioned above interact minorly or majorly with SKI/CEL/LUC, which are core stats for any assassin-like build that uses daggers, and their success is solely due to it. If you were to change anything in those daggers to englobe STR on them, they'd immediately fall flat on their own face and become ridiculously underpowered. And that's the case with Hikage & Tsukikage.

Sure 'cool', you get to teleport behind someone, mada mada. But can we remember how many things nowadays just 'want' you to be on both behind the enemy and in melee range? Shaitans can clap your cheeks with one press of a button, and overall the crappy damage can both be TANKED by defensive builds, or easily DODGED by more optimized classes that use them, all because they're akin to STR Guns without any hit buffs or class that makes them the slightest usable to the tier of other options.

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SO! TL;DR since you didn't come here to see me stating the obvious.

Quote:The STR scaling gotta go from these two daggers. They should probably be changed to these to be any usable by actual dagger builds, not omniclassing swordsmen:

A- 70% GUI/40% SKI
B- 70% SKI/40% GUI
C- 40% SKI/ 35% CEL/ 35% GUI (which I believe would be best for them)

In exchange I'd see Burn/Silence's on-crit effect durations lowered by 1. (Or not? We have Steel Aura to counter, and Silence has a huge 'grace period' of immunity, and Burn's LV is only 15, pathetic extra damage.)

C'mon, Dev. They're really cool weapons with an unique set ability. Why must they be so needlessly difficult to build for and have such bad basic stats and overall performance when compared to "better options"?

I'd rather see all SKI-based swords getting their SKI taken away for STR. Atleast it'd make it more fair and swords are supposed to use STR anyway. But Daggers? That's not da wae. Especially when 99% of a dagger-based char's gameplay is basic hitting.

RE: Hikage and Tsukikage - Autumn - 02-04-2021

If these daggers end up becoming GUI-focused I would be scared of the ramifications of Burn + Silence since those are 2 statuses that a VA perfectly plays around, with Burn's strength as it is I don't know about that, they'd quickly become "The Best Daggers" once again.

Maybe if you removed the statuses all together, one class' ability shouldn't be the sole counterplay to them, if you removed both of those statuses you could probably end up bringing these things back to a GUI focused scaling, but I am in general agreeance that STR scaling daggers are just bad, its not really possible to build STR GUI in the same stat-set without sacrificing too much simply.

RE: Hikage and Tsukikage - Balor - 02-04-2021

I like the pair of daggers a lot. I think if you just buffed their accuracy by ten. Or put their base crit up by 5 then they'd be in a niche but good spot.

I feel their bonuses give them a shitton of usability since burn and silence are high tier on the list of status effects you want.

They feel good to use but could use a bit more.

RE: Hikage and Tsukikage - Autumn - 02-04-2021

(02-04-2021, 02:14 PM)Balor Wrote: I like the pair of daggers a lot. I think if you just buffed their accuracy by ten. Or put their base crit up by 5 then they'd be in a niche but good spot.

I feel their bonuses give them a shitton of usability since burn and silence are high tier on the list of status effects you want.

They feel good to use but could use a bit more.

Agreed that the statuses they inflict carry them alone, they're worth building STR for at the moment but they're niche and will take away from the rest of your build somehow, on the plus side they are STR scaling so you can sacrifice a bit of VIT for them stat wise.

However I do think that if their scaling is changed to be along the lines of general daggers, the statuses alone will overtune them to hell.

RE: Hikage and Tsukikage - Snake - 02-04-2021

Silence has a lot of counterplay that it's not even relevant anymore. Heron Feather or Throatopener get rid of this weapon and put its next inflict on a "4 round cooldown" due to the latest changes to it if you have forgotten. You can also just simply have Critical Evade or be a Black Knight to fully halt Tsukikage's attempts at having any importance with its current bad scaling. You can stop the enemy from attacking you, but not only they can shrug it off but your attempts at damaging them will be nil anyway, thanks to the poor scaling.

Burn only works to cripple people who stack Bonus DEF and as I have said, the damage it does is pathetic as the LV is a mere 15 that can also work against you if the enemy absorbs fire damage somehow, and thanks to Volcanic everyone's packing Fire Resistance anyway. So basically it just has any significant effect against Mage tanks.

When you build to hit with any weapon but bows and guns, your SWA is gimped to 50 and even then the weapon's stats egg on your attempt to build. Here's a prime couple of examples of the reason why any argument that STR is optimal for daggers falls flat for assassin-like builds:

Daggers (Stock)

[Image: unknown.png]

Tamacc Shurikens

[Image: unknown.png]

Bakaga Shurikens

[Image: unknown.png]

Touyaa Shurikens

[Image: unknown.png]

Ninshi Shurikens

[Image: unknown.png]

Paragi Shurikens

[Image: unknown.png]

Stingers

Daggers of Bleeding

[Image: unknown.png]

Creed Replicas

[Image: unknown.png]

Suzaku Tessens

[Image: unknown.png]

Byakko Tessens

[Image: unknown.png]

Seiryuu Tessens (The Meta pair)

[Image: unknown.png]

Hikage and Tsukikage

[Image: unknown.png]

Thief Blade (Funny STR Daggers)

[Image: unknown.png]

Magnifying Glasses

[Image: unknown.png]

Vorpal Fang and Dancing Shiv (Classic duo)

[Image: unknown.png]

Atlaua's Abaniko and Eternal Solitude

[Image: unknown.png]

Can you spot the reason why it's always the same daggers we see being used in actual PvE and PvP that are not people trying to crack jokes at how bad they are? Seiryuu Tessen. Vorpal Fang. Dancing Shiv. Atlaua's Abaniko (which good lord I just saw how good it is now), even flippin' Magnifying Glasses passed the test there. Magnifying Glasses, dude. And no one can say neither of these weapons mentioned have 'no strong and significant effects'.

Seiryuu Tessen does 100% Elemental ATK in combination of Wind and Lightning together, which ignores protection too, plus the highest SWA possible out of all daggers in existence.
Vorpal Fang has a 25% chance of negating DEF+Armor with backstabs.
Dancing Shiv is a safer Vorpal Fang that cripples 12 DEF for several rounds.
Atlaua's Abaniko has range, same effect as Tsukikage with no 'grace period' (iirc?), and even Luckiness Dance which buffs THE WHOLE PARTY.
Magnifying Glasses has a damn awesome Revenge potential that allows you to annihilate whoever drew first blood.

I question further why shouldn't Hikage and Tsukikage, and for instance, the rest of these damn daggers to fall in line with them. It's either that or nerfing the 'big ol' five' presented so all daggers are trash-tier together because they got 'special effects tied to them', I guess? Iunno anymore.

SL2 doesn't give much flexibility on building if you're a basic hitter, just saying. No way you can have STR in any scaling without shooting yourself in the foot. Also pay close attention to my HP and VIT spending.

[Image: unknown.png]

(This was also the base of my build's items, just to add more. All traits and talents that influence combat have also been spent.)

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Then adding to that, there's an attempt at making Hikage/Tsukikage work by completely ashing my HP and other stuff. The SWA is just -grazing- by the other options mentioned above that need no STR. And I barely even have GUI to amplify said damage properly! It's an absurd.

[Image: unknown.png]

RE: Hikage and Tsukikage - Autumn - 02-04-2021

Yeah no I agree with you that STR scaling just does not fit with daggers at all and I think that most daggers should primarily be GUI scaling, however Hayabusa is such a heavy loaded set effect on top of having access to incredibly easy to apply burn that its just not funny if they become super hyper meta for VAs again, the only reason they're okay at the moment is because STR is so ungratifying for VAs to build.

I'm willing to give it a shot but I suspect they will very quickly rise to the top of just being meta dagger 1 and 2 again, I would vastly prefer ALL daggers have no STR scaling, STR scaling dooms them to be unused primarily.

Dagger Dance also sees little use outside of the on-hit daggers I will add at least.