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+--- Thread: Boxer Woes (/showthread.php?tid=8406)
Boxer Woes - RedtailPinny - 09-09-2021
I feel as if Boxer as a class is slowly becoming as antiquated as Spellthief, Arbelast and Demon Hunter are, what with all sorts of new skills, spells and systems put in place that've been outright ignoring the core features of Boxer. My current woes with Boxer are twofold, and everyone is welcome to pitch in and provide their own thoughts and opinions as well:
Geist, in its current form, is "too good". Similar to Dodge currently is. What I mean by that is when it works, it works REALLY well (ie, you trigger geist, your opponent just lost 3-4M, you took no damage, you're very likely right in their face, and you now potentially have 10M to do whatever you want). But when it doesn't work, it's pretty much useless (you're closer to the enemy, you take full damage, nothing happens) So what do people do? Similar to dodge, they just ignore the mechanic entirely.
I personally feel like one of two things should happen with geist:
1. Geist shouldn't have so many attacks these days outright ignore it.
2. Geist should get changed to not completely negate an enemy attack, but instead provide a large damage resistance bonus for guessing the correct action the enemy uses against you. That way, you aren't "ruining" the fun of whoever you're fighting, but you're still being rewarded for predicting the flow of the battle, which is what Geist is all about to begin with.
On top of this: Clumsy as a status effect. Holy shit, did you know Board Shaker from Black Knight ignores geist completely, then applies Clumsy, which turns off like every single freaking skill martial artist and boxer has? Similar to other classes, Clumsy completely neuters Boxer by removing almost every form of offense and defense the class has. But this thread isn't about how certain status effects are too strong, that's for other threads (like Amber's State of GR2 thread)
Also, it goes without saying, but you can almost completely counter a boxer by staying within 1 or 6 squares of them, since their geist severely limits where they can move to without losing strum. So, two potential options I see for that would be:
1. Geist becomes a 1-6 targettable line. That keeps them as a line based class, but also helps them catch up with people with say, winged serpent, or the occasional cheeky guy who stands juuust out of reach to force you to lose 2 strum using Movement, Orkan Drahern (if you even have it), or any other non-boxer ability.
2. Basic Movement no longer causes you to lose 2 strum stacks.
3. Geist no longer counts as a movement ability, to get around Clumsy. This is a double edged sword, since that also means it wouldn't proc Mirage Walk. I don't feel comfortable allowing Geist to just get past EVERYTHING and having zero downsides to it.
Also, a random aside, perhaps Fighting Pace should be changed in some way, to justify Ending your turn with 3+M? Right now at max rank you gain 10FP for ending turn with 3M or more, which is hardly enough for a max rank Felhook at 14FP. Maybe it can get changed to 10% of your FP if you end with 3M or more, instead.
RE: Boxer Woes - JamOfBoy - 09-10-2021
As I've said before in other Boxer related threads, Boxer having counterplay isn't an issue. Boxer is a contract. You get the benefits of Geists and Schwarz Sturm at the cost of limiting your movement options and needing to build Schwarz up.
This means subjecting yourself to status effects that have detrimental effects on skills, or someone being out of your range. You should know what you signed up for, and you should accept that Clumsy and Immobilize will cripple you (or at least the Boxer part of you).
There are ways around this and this is where it becomes resource management. Moving, Orkam, non-Boxer skills, as you mentioned. Change this, and getting 8 Schwarz Grandupper-ed from 15 tiles away in any direction for only 4 momentum is a possibility.
This being said. I agree that Geists should probably check the source of the next instance of damage, rather than if they were targeted by a skill or basic attack or not - this'd make it apply rightly to everything once outliers like status damage and such are worked around. In simpler terms, make Geists, mechanically, in the code, function like a 100% chance-of-activation 100% DR Parry that refunds the momentum cost of the Geist on trigger and move you closer to the opponent who attacked you. The code for these things individual things already exists, I'm pretty sure.
RE: Boxer Woes - Mr.SmileGod - 09-10-2021
I'm of the opinion that the biggest screw-up in the concept of geist is that the guessing part isn't so much guessing as it is a 'oh, they only do targeted skills? die.'
I think geist's current mechanic would be fine as-is, if the 'basic attack' geist triggered on more, while Zwei proc'd on actual 'autohits', for lack of a better word. With no skills that ignore geist, but with geist not completely eating AoE skills like it currently does. Just make it ONLY protect the boxer in question.
What do I mean by 'more'? I mean by making the basic-attack geist proc on anything that does a basic attack proc. Sidecut, warp strike, checkmate, EI, shit like that. Those shouldn't proc on Zwei or ignore. They should proc on Eins. This would even out the guessing game aspect of it a /lot/. Could also set a boxer's evade to 0 while they have the geist status, as a punishment for an incorrect guess.
If geist absolutely NEEDED a set of skills that ignored it entirely, just make it ONLY be things that ignore evasion normally.
On a tangentially related note, why do baseclass MA skills cost sturm? I see why they wouldn't /give/ sturm, but they also shouldn't reduce it.
EDIT: I should also add that I really just don't want a case of 'rework that completely screws a gimmick and replaces it with something with less than half its original utility'. One-damage-instance reductions aren't really worth the investment, especially in a fight larger than a 1v1. The momentum recovery from a successful geist is the only reason why geist sees any use.
RE: Boxer Woes - Kazzy - 09-11-2021
I'm of the opinion that racial skills and MA skills shouldn't completely ruin your Sturm stack. Punching someone doesn't reduce your Shwartz. Using Venom bite or Banquet or other punch-adjacent skills shouldn't ruin it either. Having more things that actually interact with the class would be nice, though. Maybe a modernization ala BK. Asura Fist could stand to have elemental augments, so could Felhook.
Maybe something so that Boxer isn't almost 100% insular. If you're a Boxer, you're not mixing Boxer into your build. You're hoping to god that you can get passives from other classes to work with Boxer.