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+--- Thread: The Archer / MG Shuffle (/showthread.php?tid=8848)
The Archer / MG Shuffle - WaifuApple - 02-23-2022
This is not a balance post, just to stress - what I'm asking for here is not out of desire to add or detract from these classes when it comes to their power within the game - I just think that overall, Archer is pretty empty and MG is stuffed full of points. So, with that in mind, why don't we take some of these things on MG, and put them into the base class instead? Frees up skill points in MG, and allows gunners to actually make use of their full SP in archer, too. Heck, it would also give reason for people to take certain skills they wouldn't normally, in some cases - while others are just because the ties specifically to the MAGIC part of the class aren't particularly strong.
So, here are my suggestions for stuff to move from MG to Archer:
=- One-Hit Wonder and Akimbo -=
For these two I justify it with the fact that archer already has boosts being offered for bows only, so room to allot points here instead rounds out the class, without taking anything from the identity of MG as a whole. Akimbo is about in line with an MC ability in base rogue, so I wouldn't call it out of place as a base either, and one-hit-wonder is just power steroids for shotguns.
=- Parting Shot and Covering Fire -=
Not sure I know anyone who uses these, and for good reason. Who's taking them over padding out their shells, and stuff like charged shot and overshot, which are more key to the class as a whole? These are arguably base-class level gun skills slapped in the only gun-focused class there is, so I'd say they wouldn't have problems in archer. If you have spare points left in that class, you might actually consider taking these just because you can, and there might be some people who actually have them as a result.
Hopefully people feel the same way about this idea, honestly. I feel like to me it just makes sense, in lieu of trying to create whole new base class gun things to balance around.
RE: The Archer / MG Shuffle - FaeLenx - 02-23-2022
Just make demon hunter an archer subclass because it's already just MGer DLC. That way you can destiny.
RE: The Archer / MG Shuffle - Autumn - 02-23-2022
I think Sly said it best in my arbalest rework thread I made more than a few months back, Arbalest should definitely get some gun compatibility in its kit, and probably synergize more with sniper rifles and launchers as they are typically the heavier weapons that would fit in well with its identity.
Archer itself should probably have more gun compatability, I think it would be worth it to think of ways to double down on each of the skills being various trick shots for guns. Such as tinkering with ideas like:
Pulling shot, you hook onto an enemy with a rope and pull yourself towards them instead. (If performed with a gun)
Snake Shot - Reduces a foes defense (If performed with a gun)
etc.
RE: The Archer / MG Shuffle - Lolzytripd - 02-23-2022
perhaps broaden the horizon here.
Akimbo/One hit wonder/+something new for rifles become a Gun training passive in Archer. one hit wonder takes a nerf (half it's total), and maybe rifles gain more range/accuracy when two handed with a glove slot/shield.
Parting shot is removed from the game, while retreat flight is also removed fromranger. Replaced with a new skill that is an archer skill for retreating.
RE: The Archer / MG Shuffle - FaeLenx - 02-23-2022
Nerfing an already suboptimal build (magic gunner) by halfing one of the few remaining strong characteristics it has (nice chonky shotgun damage and magical nova being semi-viable for MG/Evoker) is kinda silly. It doesn't need to be less if it was put into the archer tree. It's not like a non-magic gunner would have it. They'd just have more shell options and actually fun possibilities for gameplay rather than being one of those classes with more than half of their skill points tied up in required skills to function.
RE: The Archer / MG Shuffle - WaifuApple - 02-24-2022
I don't think suggesting changes like nerfs is in the spirit of what this idea hopes to achieve - we're not in balance fu, this isn't hoping to make MG stronger or weaker in any way, and that's a discussion I think that would be best had elsewhere, regardless of my opinions on it.
Really, what I want to do here isn't shake up the field of balance much, if at all - but pad out Archer with things that can arguably fit there, while freeing up MG to have just a little more freedom with their builds and what shells they can take, and make the class as a whole just more fun to build. New pieces of kit for archer, or synergy with existing kit is cool and such, however this is all more for the sake of just kind of smoothing the gap between Archer and MG, and allowing them to use more of what they already have.
In that vein, this is more meant to be a simple suggestion that would be easy to act upon, on my part. On the topic of Arbalest, it's just generally agreed upon that a retool is needed there, so on that front I'm not gonna ask for much either way. I expect at some point any changes to Arbalest will come in some more focused update.
RE: The Archer / MG Shuffle - FaeLenx - 02-24-2022
While I like the idea, I disagree that this is anything but a balance discussion. It does make a class fundamentally stronger by finally giving them a use for dead skill points and offering more in their main tree.
RE: The Archer / MG Shuffle - WaifuApple - 02-24-2022
The underlying changes to the balance of the class are overall negligible to me - the proposed change doesn't offer any radical change, and just makes it easier for the class to do what it already was doing, honestly. It's about improving the bridge between archer and MG in a simple way.
The reason it's here is because the goal of this post is to do that. To improve the flow from one class into the other, so MG isn't trying to be both a base class and a promoted class in one go, because that feels like cramped design. As such, stuff like whether the abilities themselves are good or bad as they are should honestly be considered separately, and in a topic more centric to them.
Now, considering whether you think giving them a use for wasted skill points is unbalanced here, for the classes, in this way, is fair game to me to be thinking about in the post. I simply, firmly believe that the post should stay true to what it seeks to achieve, rather than becoming about more than it really is.
Does the idea as it is proposed have merit? Are there arguments against moving certain skills here? Are there other skills that people think might fit? Personally, that's what I wanted to know in posting this, overall.
RE: The Archer / MG Shuffle - Snake - 02-25-2022
I do wonder how plausible it is to move Magic Gunner from Archer into its own base class, the 'Gunslinger', which offers more gun-focused gimmicks and mobility, and a way to attack three times in a row with any firearms as you meet some conditions. It might even open up opportunities for future gun-related things, like idk... 'Sniper' class, which could be a counterpart to 'Ranger' in a sense but in its own steampunky flavor.
Though I won't discredit Apple's word. MG as is could easily have all its shells be static numbers, and only be 2 ranks. 1 rank for obtaining the skill, other rank to make it not take skill slots.
Nor I'd discredit Amber's post either, being able to dual-weapon some skills and if they're done with a different weapon than the original for different effects, it'd be rad.