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+--- Thread: [Kensei] Absolute Worthless, a rethonkening (/showthread.php?tid=8991)
[Kensei] Absolute Worthless, a rethonkening - Snake - 06-16-2022
These buffs last too short, and their debuffs too. So I'm requesting just a single round worth of bumping on their duration, plus an additional effect that stacks per use of Absolute Death/Fear/Pace that makes Kensei more fun imo. Working all the way up for a big secret finisher move like a true samurai should be.
Quote:Absolute Death
Base duration of Marked for Death should be increased to 2.
- (Rank 3) New Effect: Grants 'Resolve' to the Kensei for 5 rounds. (Resolve makes Kensei Combos inflict or stack Lingering Damage (Slash) with a LV of 15, for 3 rounds. Max LV = Kensei Level + 40.)
Quote:Absolute Fear
Base duration of all effects should be increased to 2.
- (Rank 3) New Effect: Grants 'Pressure' to the Kensei for 5 rounds. (Pressure makes any damage taken from any enemy (who is Feared or Hesitating), if not Evaded, become a Glancing Blow. Once per enemy, per Fear and per Hesitation on them, max. 2 times.)
Quote:Absolute Pace
Base duration of Battle Flow should be 5 rounds.
- (Rank 3) New Effect: Grants 'Intent' to the Kensei for 5 rounds. (Intent makes it so if an enemy inflicted with Battle Flow targets you while you have NO Momentum, you will nullify the attack, teleport to them and counter-attack with Kagekiri (Kensei Combo version). Once per enemy.)
Quote:Sheath Sword
Changed from 3M+ to 1M+
Changed from 5 SP to 3 SP
Quickdraw's bonus Hit and Damage changed to 10 per Rank.
- New Effect: If you are under the effects of Resolve, Pressure and Intent, and have Hidden Cut equipped, triggering Hidden Cut will instantly kill non-player, non-boss enemies; Otherwise it will deal bonus damage based on the enemy's missing HP (2.5% damage per 1% HP missing), afterwards the listed buffs will be removed and the enemy will be debuffed with 'Steadfast Mind' for 2 rounds. (Steadfast Mind prevents Sakki/Touki/Kenki to be inflicted on the unit for the duration.)
What do y'all think? This is the redone version of the latest with notable changes now that I could think more about it. Cricitism is welcome, and honestly if Boxer can be an NPC instakill class with such a linear build up that's now even more easier now due to Kragenfleur and Schwarz Sturm changes, why can't a class with a literal deadly sword and its only theme being based on killing things not?
It fixes the long coming request to have Kensei gaining its own finishing move, and I couldn't think of anything better than sheathing your sword and popping an enemy like a balloon.
RE: [Kensei] Absolute Worthless, a rethonkening - Lolzytripd - 06-17-2022
sheath sword really needs to be reduced to 1m, My opinion on quick draw is that you should gain a quickdraw attack per 3m spent on the sheath sword.
RE: [Kensei] Absolute Worthless, a rethonkening - HaTeD - 06-17-2022
(06-16-2022, 05:53 PM)Snake Wrote: These buffs last too short, and their debuffs too. So I'm requesting just a single round worth of bumping on their duration, plus an additional effect that stacks per use of Absolute Death/Fear/Pace that makes Kensei more fun imo. Working all the way up for a big secret finisher move like a true samurai should be.
Quote:Absolute Deathlvl 75 lingering is much too high and will heavily change the tide of battle even against tanks not to mention the already 2 hit quit evade builds. Hard disagree here for the new effect.
Base duration of Marked for Death should be increased to 2.
- (Rank 3) New Effect: Grants 'Resolve' to the Kensei for 5 rounds. (Resolve makes Kensei Combos inflict or stack Lingering Damage (Slash) with a LV of 15, for 3 rounds. Max LV = Kensei Level + 40.)
Quote:Absolute FearReflavored fortunite is also a really bad idea for balance. On demand fear and hesitation applications are abound and just because its once or twice takes away from the rng already in place. Once is enough to sway advantage and this is very abusable.
Base duration of all effects should be increased to 2.
- (Rank 3) New Effect: Grants 'Pressure' to the Kensei for 5 rounds. (Pressure makes any damage taken from any enemy (who is Feared or Hesitating), if not Evaded, become a Glancing Blow. Once per enemy, per Fear and per Hesitation on them, max. 2 times.)
Quote:Absolute PaceYou're out of your mind. ^\/
Base duration of Battle Flow should be 5 rounds.
- (Rank 3) New Effect: Grants 'Intent' to the Kensei for 5 rounds. (Intent makes it so if an enemy inflicted with Battle Flow targets you while you have NO Momentum, you will nullify the attack, teleport to them and counter-attack with Kagekiri (Kensei Combo version). Once per enemy.)
Quote:Sheath Sword
Changed from 3M+ to 1M+
Changed from 5 SP to 3 SP
Quickdraw's bonus Hit and Damage changed to 10 per Rank.
- New Effect: If you are under the effects of Resolve, Pressure and Intent, and have Hidden Cut equipped, triggering Hidden Cut will instantly kill non-player, non-boss enemies; Otherwise it will deal bonus damage based on the enemy's missing HP (2.5% damage per 1% HP missing), afterwards the listed buffs will be removed and the enemy will be debuffed with 'Steadfast Mind' for 2 rounds. (Steadfast Mind prevents Sakki/Touki/Kenki to be inflicted on the unit for the duration.)
What do y'all think? This is the redone version of the latest with notable changes now that I could think more about it. Cricitism is welcome, and honestly if Boxer can be an NPC instakill class with such a linear build up that's now even more easier now due to Kragenfleur and Schwarz Sturm changes, why can't a class with a literal deadly sword and its only theme being based on killing things not?
It fixes the long coming request to have Kensei gaining its own finishing move, and I couldn't think of anything better than sheathing your sword and popping an enemy like a balloon.
Fights go way to fast as it is. With all of these changes this will become the new meta no doubt. I'm sorry Kunai but I believe you've had better ideas in the past but these aren't taking balance into consideration imo. Sheath sword is 3m for a reason. Added hit to everyone you hit already from a fixed local anywhere on the map and possible double riposte. This would absolutely be more than just powerful for pve and pvp.
RE: [Kensei] Absolute Worthless, a rethonkening - Snake - 06-17-2022
Those are Rank 3 effects, Hated. You'll need to spend SP on them and sacrifice spending on other aspects of Kensei to obtain that. To use this new Hissatsu you'll need to fully invest 9 SP for all the three Intent effects. The spirit behind this request is to make Kensei slowly grow in power as the fight goes on, and have a guaranteed finishing move once they're at their peak.
Lingering Damage from Resolve will take 5 Kensei Combos to fully stack. (So numerically, at BEST with all Fleurs hitting and your opponent not evading anything, you'll take 2 rounds and a half to obtain LV75, and at worst, with NO FLEUR, you'll take exactly 5 rounds for that.)
Pressure would make it so the first damage instance you receive from an enemy becomes a Glancing Blow, if they have Fear. And again if they have Hesitation. Both Fear and Hesitation have counters attached to it not only from classes, but also equipment, and one whole race who laughs at this premise.
Intent is just Ashe's stuff, using Boxer's targeting, and requires you to be faster than your opponent in turn order. It can be countered by skills that don't really target your enemy and target the ground instead. Which we have a lot of that nowadays.
SP costs are balanced (and fairly massive if you think about it, since you also need 1 point on Sakki/Touki/Kenki on top of Rank 3 over the Absolutes), the effects all have counterplay based on Kensei's thematics (Resolve = Deny their crits, Pressure = Deny their fear/hesitation, Intent = be faster than them or don't play the targeting game). So I'll have to ask, what exactly do you disagree with there?
RE: [Kensei] Absolute Worthless, a rethonkening - Bryce_Hego - 06-19-2022
(06-17-2022, 07:07 AM)Snake Wrote: Lingering Damage from Resolve will take 5 Kensei Combos to fully stack. (So numerically, at BEST with all Fleurs hitting and your opponent not evading anything, you'll take 2 rounds and a half to obtain LV75, and at worst, with NO FLEUR, you'll take exactly 5 rounds for that.)
Without denying a Kensei a way to stick to you, or the ability to remove debuffs. Having the power to repeatedly reapply and increase the damage is very potent. It can hit 95 if destiny Kensei/Ghost, which I suspect we would see a lot of if these buffs came.
(06-17-2022, 07:07 AM)Snake Wrote: Pressure would make it so the first damage instance you receive from an enemy becomes a Glancing Blow, if they have Fear. And again if they have Hesitation. Both Fear and Hesitation have counters attached to it not only from classes, but also equipment, and one whole race who laughs at this premise.Considering that without on-hit damage procs, or the ability to hit more than 2 times in a round, you will more or less be able to shut down a lot of damage potential of a large chunk of players.
(06-17-2022, 07:07 AM)Snake Wrote: Intent is just Ashe's stuff, using Boxer's targeting, and requires you to be faster than your opponent in turn order. It can be countered by skills that don't really target your enemy and target the ground instead. Which we have a lot of that nowadays.This is very badass sounding but even excusing that you need to be first in turn order, this can become geist+ as you do not need to repeatedly spend 3M for 5 whole rounds, it denies the opponent a lot of attacking options since now they are forced to use non-targets against you, and it covers both BASICS and NON-BASICS. This is absolutely nutty, especially when combined with your proposed pressure, allowing you to potentially completely shut out some builds from ever effectively hurting you UNLESS they can remove debuffs, or outpace your celerity.
This would only be balanced if Battleflow is removed from a target after they trigger it, or Intent is removed after you proc it, since atm it sounds like it's once per round allowing potentially 5 counters for 3M. Even then it's still arguably better than geist in that there's no gamble with basic/non-basic and you can cuck an opponent from target moves for...FIVE ROUNDS unless they give in and let you proc it.
Combo version also means it will shut out evasion AND further inflict lingering damage from Resolve.
Isn't Battleflow supposed to be given to the Kensei?
Comparing what Ashe has to what Kensei has is the same arguement as asking why DH can't do the stuff Kinu does. The excuse is they are OP demigods and you physically cannot git gud.
RE: [Kensei] Absolute Worthless, a rethonkening - Snake - 06-23-2022
Ahem, any ideas to make this better? You shouldn't forget that to apply each and every one of those you'll also need to previously have inflicted a certain Kensei spiritual passive on the enemy, so it's not really "3M", which is my main complaint about all the absolutes as a whole.
You spend 6M for something that doesn't really do much if anything at all, and has a short duration, which makes it all not very fun to be on the using side of. I don't see any Kensei using the Absolutes over Hidden Cut's bonus damage, as it is a better momentum investment overall.
Running a basic momentum simulation you'd see, aside the whole SP cost fiasco, how much time it takes and how much DPT you lose for just inflicting those things. I could get better ideas on both too, like for example
Pressure - Reduces the effects of Guarding by (20 + Kensei LV)% if the enemy is Feared, (and Parry skills if the enemy is under Hesitation), while being attacked by the Kensei.
Intent - Makes the Kensei teleport towards the enemy they've marked at the beginning of their turn, if they are within 5 range, and gain Sacred Art.
The lingering damage is a tank buster, it will never be momentum efficient and by the time you manage to stack it up to LV75-95 the enemy will probably be long dead, and if they're not? You're fighting a 1000+ HP boss or BK, which then is the purpose why I suggest it that way. So Kensei can actually do something against its current hard counters, or contribute in fights where they can't quite, such as vs Seto, who has insane physical DR.
However, if that's also disagreeable, we could make it so Hidden Cut is the one that stacks that up, since Sheath Sword forces your turn to end.
RE: [Kensei] Absolute Worthless, a rethonkening - Lolzytripd - 06-25-2022
Reduce hidden cuts damage to 5% swa per rank and let me stack it...
RE: [Kensei] Absolute Worthless, a rethonkening - lalchi - 06-26-2022
My critic would be for absolute pace, for pretty much the same reason stated before.
Combined with skills like guard or power up. This is an easy proc.
I think that if you take off the counter attack on the effect. It would already be much more correct ? (especially if we consider that most duelist PROBABLY have riposte) Maybe add a chance proc based on luck/guile/any stat that seems to fit + LV rank
I do like the idea that a Kensei becomes more and more dangerous over the time of the fight. But due to that, i feel like it's important to not give him defense ability that would make it simple for a kensei to stale on fight. Since the adversary goal at that point would be to shorten the fight as much as they can.