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[Growths] Growth Defaulting System - Ranylyn - 03-20-2015
Sometimes, you just want to play as a class combo for IC/Synergy reasons. But their growths add up to a steaming pile of fail. "Oh, just min/max and switch at higher levels!" Oh, I'm sorry, I wasn't aware this game didn't have classes besides the ones with the most specialize growths, how stupid of me to think these other classes had the gall to dare exist!
For the following examples, I will be using a Papillion due to their all around average growths. Style Blending and all Talent bonuses are included. LE bonuses are not included. Traits are not included since a player may decide they have a different priority in desied stats.
______ Str - Wil - Skl - Cel - Def - Res - Vit - Fai - Luc
-VA/LB- 57%/32%/55%/90%/30%/25%/50%/40%/45%
-EN/MN- 50%/25%/60%/77%/25%/32%/70%/40%/45%
-VG/MN- 55%/50%/55%/62%/35%/32%/70%/40%/25%
-PR/TC- 31%/58%/43%/61%/32%/47%/57%/65%/27%
You get the idea. These stats don't look THAT terrible, until you realize that statistically, you'll be getting to level 60 with primary stats likely still under 40. "Oh, I got 50+ in a stat with a 30% chance!" That's nice, now screw off, you're an outlier, the statistical likelihood of that is very close to zero. You have a MUCH higher chance of having 15-20 in that stat.
My suggestion: Purchaseable traits to "default" your entire growth spread to a preset based on what kind of build you want. These presets would be inferior to optimally min/maxed builds, but still less detrimental than either a stat spread lacking focus, or mixing classes with incompatible growths. It would also allow classes with abilities using a stat they don't get much of (Monk/Ghost/VA come to mind, with their Will skills and 0% will growths) to be used in different and creative ways without simply swapping classes at high levels.
Re: [Growths] Growth Defaulting System - Sarinpa1 - 03-20-2015
No.
The way it works, when you choose classes you want to level with, you have two choices : Get main stats reliably good. Or, get all around stats with not so much reliability.
If your whole argument behind this is "but muh IC" then picture this. Soldier and Duelist go well together in terms of growths, yes? Look at IC. You train sword techniques, your body to put power and precision behind the strikes. If you main a duelist, you more rather focus on the art, than the pure power. And other way around. But it is still similiar training. Duelist with rogue? The pure power behind your strikes matters little (muh soldier is gone) but the precision and speed, get more focus. You won't spend as much time weight lifting, running, doing push-ups whatever, but will focus on precise strikes, agility, reflexes. Blah blah.
If you want your IC classes to be a voidmage of any sort of variant, that's nice. But given you are not dedicating yourself to the same or similiar discipline, you spend half the time on this, half the time on that. Voidmage might have that awesome black bolt. But along the class comes incredible speed. Incredible precision. Not reading a book. Casting spells is damn lot different from cutting shit with a dagger. So yeah. The will growth in the daggercut class will be pretty damn inferior.
Did you ever try to follow the advice I repeatedly shout at you everytime you complain about your horrible RNG luck and such...and actualy make a good build?
Anyways, the way I see it, ICly, it makes sense, mechanics wise, it makes sense as well.
Anything else?
Re: [Growths] Growth Defaulting System - Ranylyn - 03-20-2015
You may be right about the Soldier/Duelist and Duelist/Rogue examples (And I agree completely on those,) but I fail to see how a VA "has" to be about "cutting shit with a dagger."
They actually only have two Active (Fray, Cutthoat) and two Passive skills (Backstab, Deadly Arms) strictly for daggers. On the flip side, they have a number of skills that are beneficial to -ANY- build (Dark Shield, Voidveil, Blotch, Absorb Veil, Obscure, Radiation, Black and Blue, arguably Black Bolt just for the effects) and some that are more useful to more specialised builds (Advancing Flow, Veil Off, Black Bolt) Even a cursory glance shows that 6-7 General skills and 2-3 more specialized non-dagger skills comes up to 9 skills that a non dagger class can get good use out of, vs only 4 dagger skills. Oh, and Rogue has no physical attacks, either, so their pre-promoted skillset only adds a plethora of options to most classes rather than enforcing "oh, it's a purely physical class."
Monk is another good example. They get 20% Str and 0% Will, while having two skills that scale with Str. They get an even amount of Will based skills to their Str based skills. They also have a number of skills that work well on any build, such as Power Up, Sun Flare, Golden Glow, Spirituality, Woki, etc. Once again, there's absolutely zero reason why a monk's focus "needs" to be on bodybuilding, when they work well with another build. Yes, they admittedly have access to MA's skills as well, but the point stands that monk has more than enough to work in tandem with another class without ever touching one of it's own attack skills. And with all that spirituality stuff, you can't tell me they're supposed to be incompatible with mages.
Ghost, as well. Again, 20% Str, 0% Will. A single Sword skill and a single Axe skill scale with Str (again, admittedly they still have access to their pre-promo skills, but read my comment about monks) and two physically oriented buffs (Dark Imbue and Fitting Form.) They get Ether Invitation and Death Gaze which do damage independant of any stat (though EI -can- hit harder with higher Vitality) Ghostwind and Gravestone to do damage based on Willpower, Red Rain to mark enemies without doing physical damage, and of course, Wraithguard, Painproof, Rebound, Last Chance, Rising Game, Anti-Curse, Claret Call (for Rebound/Last Chance) Haunting, you get the idea. Once again, this class is basically as Will oriented as it is Strength Oriented, and can work well without ever swinging a weapon if it has the right stats. So I don't see why it "has" to be a physical class. Their disciplines can be applied well just about anywhere.
Engineer is also a prime example. 20% Str growth, and nothing to use it on besides physical attacks. They have Bashfix to try to encourage them to use an axe, but they also have 40% Skill and a gun skill, so... um... I actually don't see the -point- in them having a Strength Growth OR in Bashfix being locked to axes. The vast majority of their stuff (Read: Everything besides Flamethrower) works completely independantly of your own stats and even weapon (with the exception of Flamethrower and Bashfix,) so they can work well with any other class. You could also make the argument that since Karaten has the most advanced engineers (Mechanations) that blend magic and technology (Mechanations) that Engineers (who can augment mechanations on the battlefield) know enough about working with magic to be adept in it. Just throwing that out there.
So, no. It isn't as clear cut as you make it look. Many classes can be used perfectly well without ever TOUCHING the areas affected by their growths, so the whole "oh, half here, half there" argument doesn't hold up unless you're actually playing it that way. As I've outlined above, though, many classes have wonderful synergy and never need to touch the aspect affected by a conflicting growth.
Quote:Did you ever try to follow the advice I repeatedly shout at you everytime you complain about your horrible RNG luck and such...and actualy make a good build?
Yes. I have. And I'm bored with every last mage being Evoker/GS. How dare I, how fucking DARE I, actually look at what else would work well together in an area other than growths, for PVE use rather than drastically switching styles at level 60 because "fuck all my build up experience I have OOC reasons!" Actually, I have a better idea. How about, instead of "Fuck me" we change this to "fuck everyone who insists that you can only play as min/maxed builds." In doing so, most of the classes largely go unused.
Re: [Growths] Growth Defaulting System - Sarinpa1 - 03-20-2015
Just because classes have things that scale off different stats than the main stats of the class are, does not make them ICly on par with classes that have them as main stats.
BK is a good example of that. Two of its passives use will, which soldier, or BK has nothing to do with and as far as I know, doesn't even have growths for. And yet my 10 will BK is using them. So no. I didn't need to min/max as you call it (good build) to utilize the aspect.
And yes. Void assassin is about critical strikes and movement to have full control of positioning people on battlefield. Not about casting black bolt. Look at the base class. Zero use for WILL.
If use use your monk example, yes, they are likely the closest one could ICly get to mages. After all, they meditate, trying to synchronize, purify both their bodies and minds, to bring them in sync, blah blah. Mages on the other hand educate themselves. Alot. And we could say they meditate too, through in a different fashion.
If you wish to have a fist-mage and want to level as the classes you're going to play exclusively. (Which is sort of killing the whole swap classes as you like, sort of kinda intended for the purpouse of building your char with the use of the classes and their growths, but let's ignore that for the sake of your example.)
You will main mage, likely evoker (willgrowth), get yourself the talent to boost willgrowth. Because a Mage/Monk will be focusing more on his mental capabilities than on the bodily ones, he will have lower str etc growths. But, because he does not completely neglect what monks do, he cannot dedicate himself fully to meditation/education, etc.
Someone that dedicates themselves purely to expanding their mind, should not be outclassed IN THEIR OWN DISCIPLINE by someone that also consumes time by side-training their body.
"fuck everyone who insists that you can only play as min/maxed builds."
Slow down there, cowboy.
Look back into old RPGs. Maybe even new ones. I don't play much of those. Jack of all trades would be the opposite of your..."min/max". You equip classes that don't go well together, growth wise. Your growths are well spread, but sub-par to those that specialize. Statisticaly, you will have something better, something worse than specialized ones. You won't have a weakness. But you won't have a strength. You are versatile. But you cannot outclass anyone that dedicated themselves to their own discipline.
Races are there. The talent trait thing is there. If you so heavily insist on not altering classes if you want your special snowflake use of class/ class combination
You should realize that it's not in someones capabilities to have perfect bodybuilding training regimen and perfect education/whatever we want to explain WILL as.
Now with that adressed, I can just say what I intended to say in the first place.
We don't need a huge ass special feature just because someone outright refuses to use the tools provided to do exactly what they're asking for.
Re: [Growths] Growth Defaulting System - Ryu-Kazuki - 03-20-2015
Do what everyone else does. Grind as a class build and switch during PvP / at lv 60.
Re: [Growths] Growth Defaulting System - Ranylyn - 03-20-2015
Funny you mention Evoker/Monk. Remember my level 28 Evoker with 12 will I never shut up about (according to someone else; I haven't mentioned her in quite some time?) Yeah. That was an Evoker/Monk.
I am well aware of what some like to call "the bybrid tax" and I am not asking for much. The simple issue is how the growth system works. If a min/maxed character can get 60-80 in a stat, is it so wrong to want a non min-maxed one to have a GOOD chance of getting 45? Especially when you consider all the potential for class synergy I haven't even listed yet, and classes that are thwarted by their own bad growths.
For another example, Bonders' Youkai don't regen every turn when not summoned (Unlike GS), so they need to actively heal them while summoned. This skill scales with FAITH, for some obscene reason. Unless they're using priest, they're sitting at maybe 45-55% faith depending on race and trait. For comparison, I made a new bonder and maxed out Devotion by level 5. At level 37, he has 15 Faith. At Rank 5 Healing Discharge, that's 30 HP (15+15) for 17 FP. In addition to the FP cost of simply keeping the Youkai summoned in order to heal it in the first place. You may be wondering, "Well what WOULD you find acceptable!?" To which I answer, "How about closer to 60% for such a critical skill, rather than 45%?"
I quote myself when I say,
Quote: Purchaseable traits to "default" your entire growth spread to a preset based on what kind of build you want. These presets would be inferior to optimally min/maxed builds, but still less detrimental than either a stat spread lacking focus, or mixing classes with incompatible growths.
I'm not asking for a Shaitan LB/Bonder to be as powerful a mage as a Lich Evoker/GS. Not even close. I'm just suggesting a few functional options if our class combos give us utter crap for growths. Maybe 75% in primary offensive stats dependant on build (Light Warrior, Heavy Warrior, Light Mage, Heavy Mage, etc) as opposed to the 60s it's possible to get stuck with.
Every class should be viable for PVE on it's own merits, without relying on other classes for growths or skills. If a class is not, then something is wrong with that class. And, of course, many classes with lower growths have wonderful tools to help compensate for the lower stats. Unfortunately, due to the randomness of the growth system, the simple fact of the matter is that it's only too easy for a class with more well-rounded growths, such as Verglas, to fall painfully short unless paired with something to boost those growths further. And I'm talking "Inability to win a PVE battle 10 levels below them" kind of falling painfully short. Unable to hit, doing 0 damage, etc.
I understand why some support the current growth system as a way of not making everyone clones with the same stat. But all that does is overcentralize the class selection towards the min/maxed growths so everyone uses the same thing. But the simple fact of the matter is that the system is fundamentally flawed if many classes are simply not viable from a growth perspective. All I am trying to do is give an alternative, a way to make those classes PVE viable, growth-wise.
Furthermore, it can work from an RP standpoint, as well. For example, I have an Engi/Kensei (Downright RNG blessed, by my standards, with well rounded stats that aren't utter garbage) who RPs the Duelist/ Kensei skills as mechanical things. The sword is a retractable blade in the arm, Absolute Death is actually sort of like a beacon attached to the target to highlight critical points (think a Delver's "Glowing" effect) Sharpen is simply taking more careful aim, etc. Even Tekagen is just standing by to absorb focus. What I'm getting at is, Mechanics and RP are not directly linked. While I do like to have a REASONABLE link (Example: A character who hurt their leg as a child and has difficulties running due to pain? They should not have high cel.) between Mechanics and RP, I think the meshing of stat and skillset is more important than the class itself.
Re: [Growths] Growth Defaulting System - Sarinpa1 - 03-20-2015
"[url=http://www.neus-projects.net/viewtopic.php?p=5635#p5635 Wrote:Sarinpa1 » Fri Mar 20, 2015 4:10 pm[/url]"]
We don't need a huge ass special feature just because someone outright refuses to use the tools provided to do exactly what they're asking for.
Traits. Talents. You can swap classes after every damn level if you feel like it.
Everyone does the same thing? Are you even playing the game?
I don't see a single good argument on why you can't swap classes like everyone else does, instead of trying to propose some system that'd most likely be quite annoying to implement. You can build the char as you like. Just swap the classes to the desired growths. But that's something I shouldn't have to be explaining.
As for the whole argument "But my leveling classes are not viable for PvE because I can't kill anything." The skills on classes are perhaps not exclusively, but quite alot based on their primary stats. If you can't beat anything you have two options : Not making yourself intentionaly weak. Or two, get help.
Please provide an argument that'd disprove these points.
Edit : With the Black Beasts, just get good armor, darkness resist and a way to inflict good fire damage. Free EXP. If you so desperately need to solo things while having terrible stats.
Re: [Growths] Growth Defaulting System - Ranylyn - 03-20-2015
"[url=http://neus-projects.net/viewtopic.php?p=5640#p5640 Wrote:Sarinpa1 » Fri Mar 20, 2015 12:59 pm[/url]"]"[url=http://www.neus-projects.net/viewtopic.php?p=5635#p5635 Wrote:Sarinpa1 » Fri Mar 20, 2015 4:10 pm[/url]"]
We don't need a huge ass special feature just because someone outright refuses to use the tools provided to do exactly what they're asking for.
(1Traits. Talents. You can swap classes after every damn level if you feel like it.
(2
I don't see a single good argument on why you can't swap classes like everyone else does, instead of trying to propose some system that'd most likely be quite annoying to implement. You can build the char as you like. Just swap the classes to the desired growths. But that's something I shouldn't have to be explaining.
As for the whole argument "But my leveling classes are not viable for PvE because I can't kill anything." The skills on classes are perhaps not exclusively, but quite alot based on their primary stats. (3 and 4
Please provide an argument that'd disprove these points.
I cannot believe you're actually making me type all this out. It's incredibly obvious. But fine. In the quote, I've gone back and numbered areas. See the number below as to what I'm replying to.
1) There's very good reasons why this is actually completely and utterly moronic, from both the IC standpoint and from the "I'm still levelling up the first time, not LE'd yet" standpoint. Here's what comes to mind immediately off the top of my head:
- Quite simply, and I'd like to remind everyone that SL2 is supposed to be an RP game... it's bad RP. What would you say if someone you knew as a warrior suddenly showed up going "lol I'm a mage now?" Or, if someone who went around cursing the gods for being... well, Gods... suddenly decided to RP as being with the Church because "omg I are teh priezt nao I must RP it teh literally, lolz" (Because I swear to god, everyone and their dog that RPs combat at all seems to do this >_
Re: [Growths] Growth Defaulting System - Sarinpa1 - 03-20-2015
So your only argument is "wow bad rp". (Didn't you have a twelve year old combatant? )
If you swap around classes and go "I am suddenly X" and the moment you swap "no thats in the history, i am now this" that's your own shit RP, not something you're forced to.
I hate grinding. I dislike anything related to the repetitive fighting. So I often don't even pay attention to it. But atleast twice a day I hear people on ooc asking about parties.
You also throw up random ideas and posts on the forums so frequently, you surely must be involved enough with the community to have friends......right?
And for your inability to tackle black beasts of your own level.
Man. If you can't devise a tactic, or procure the gear I spoke of that'd help you. You're just BAD. Not the system. YOU. Disclaimer : Peer reviewed opinion.
Re: [Growths] Growth Defaulting System - Sawrock - 03-20-2015
I agree with Ryu and Sarin. I've been grinding people using one set of classes, and roleplaying/PVPing with another. The only improvement I can see for the current way grinding works is to make gains classes and actual classes a system-thing, as in we have four classes total. Two for skills/etc, and the other two only for gains. Both sets of classes would be able to take any classes you have unlocked so far.