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+--- Thread: PVP Etiquette (/showthread.php?tid=9522)
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PVP Etiquette - Maksimum_Fire - 08-29-2022
Hey, hey, hey- It came up in a conversation today, so it's about time it comes to a thread and gets properly discussed, as a prelude for sending it up to GMs and Dev for final approval.
People have been making serious complaints that fights go on way too long, and that conflicts that would've happened didn't happen primarily because nobody wanted to be occupied for the next 6 hours.
I don't think that's healthy. I'm not a modern-day 'pvp master man' but I historically have enjoyed pvp, and I think a healthy pvp scene is an important part of having a healthy game(as long as it's a game that includes pvp, obviously).
That's why I want to start this thread off with a really clear suggestion. Serious fights that have more than 2 players(1v1) in them should be relegated to 1 minute timer for actions. This gives you 1 minute per action. So you have 1 minute to move, 1 minute to shoot, and 1 minute for one more action, for example, then it's time to end your turn. Ideally, you should try to keep this as tight as you can and not take the full 1 minute. The 1 minute timer is first and foremost so that things don't get out of hand too easily, and to spur people to act in proper timing.
As a follow up to this, consideration for your opponents should be a given. Deliberate stalling in a turn by waiting until the last moment for an action multiple times in a turn isn't cool. So it's right out. Trying to time someone out in real life isn't a fun way to play for anyone involved and is phenomenally disrespectful to their time.
I think this will lead to a healthier PvP scene, particularly in Korvara. I'm interested in y'all's takes and thoughts on what should be included as basic PvP etiquette, as well.
RE: PVP Etiquette - Trexmaster - 08-29-2022
A strictly enforced 1 minute per action rule would create a massive gap between those who coordinate OOCly via voice communication/outside channels and those who don't.
I don't think forcing people to mechanically play faster is an ideal solution. It creates this weird situation where you're encouraged to play as fast as possible to limit how much your opponent can think and in that same vein, even RP at you. It makes sense in a competitive environment but SL2's PvP is a facet of the RP and, as far as I'm aware, is meant to facilitate roleplay more so than how badly you can beat people up. Encouraging and rewarding fast play just enables munchkins and punishes those who aren't as well versed in the system to quickly read the battle and make the optimal play.
PvP shouldn't be taking multiple hours to resolve of course. I feel like a good compromise would be setting an upper limit to how long one mechanical fight can go on for in terms of OOC time, if those involved wish to have a limit. This can allow for parties to account for players who aren't OOCly coordinated or aren't well versed in the game to still enjoy themselves while not creating a situation where a fight may take upwards of 3 or more hours, by agreeing to end the fight at a predetermined time.
In general deliberately stalling shouldn't be allowed, regardless of how long the turn timer is, though defining it and proving it is rather difficult. So long as people aren't actually building DH/MG Redtails with Skyburns whose sole purpose is to maximize their turn time, we're probably fine, but if someone IS doing you dirty just call a GM to watch and catch them in real time.
RE: PVP Etiquette - Maksimum_Fire - 08-29-2022
Deliberate stalling is pretty easy to catch out when it's happening, and a 1 minute timer is something that would make it easier to catch out.
I appreciate fight RP, and I think it's plenty of fun. But I think it's important to strike a good balance between how much RP you're doing, and how much focus you're putting on playing. It's not healthy to use an entire five minutes on each turn in a teamfight to write a post, or to plan your actions, because... Then in a 4v4, that's already 40 minutes per full round.
To combat this, the community has already started encouraging people to RP post after their mechanical actions, which has been a solid step in the right direction, from what I can see.
Folks making their own plans around keeping the time schedule short is viable, too. I've seen it happen. But I think it's less reasonable to shift the onus onto them than to encourage folks to put a little bit of practice into their mechanical play, so they can speed their turns along, via a one minute timer.
I appreciate the mention of voice chat, though. That's something that came up not so long ago, as well. It's hard to crack down on, but do you think it'd be good to discourage folks using voice during PvP, then? To level the playing field?
RE: PVP Etiquette - FaeLenx - 08-30-2022
People just need to post their RPs after their actions rather than hold the entire scene hostage on their turn. Especially when it's some massive anime moment that can just be negated by some item they're not aware the enemy is wearing or something.
And if you can't get your emote out before your next turn then maybe you should consider the length of the emote in the first place.
RE: PVP Etiquette - Maksimum_Fire - 08-30-2022
I don't think your take is an unusual one, Fae Lenx. It's not exactly a matter of culpability or anything that's really deliberately kept slow, from what I can tell, and more that it's easy to get carried away.
I think a 1 minute timer will help remind people to keep their posts for after, and streamline the process all around, but if we want to push general etiquette without assuring it by means of a shortened PvP action timer, I'm fine with that too.
RE: PVP Etiquette - PossumParty - 08-30-2022
For me, I am a very slow typer mainly because I'm not very smart, it takes me awhile to think up good RP for people. A minute wouldn't be enough for me otherwise it'd just be very simple RP such as 'punches you' or some such. Though I do agree in PVP the fights can seriously drag on for hours and it does get too long. It could be taken care of on the mechanics side, but it's likely up to the players to take care of it. RPing after your turn is good, but also if you're not fast enough you're just back on your turn and still typing up the previous actions. It's hard to know what the correct call is..
RE: PVP Etiquette - FaeLenx - 08-30-2022
(08-30-2022, 08:21 AM)PossumParty Wrote: For me, I am a very slow typer mainly because I'm not very smart, it takes me awhile to think up good RP for people. A minute wouldn't be enough for me otherwise it'd just be very simple RP such as 'punches you' or some such. Though I do agree in PVP the fights can seriously drag on for hours and it does get too long. It could be taken care of on the mechanics side, but it's likely up to the players to take care of it. RPing after your turn is good, but also if you're not fast enough you're just back on your turn and still typing up the previous actions. It's hard to know what the correct call is..
If nobody else is posting then maybe it will get back to your turn.
If nobody else is posting then maybe you shoudl consider if you should post too.
RE: PVP Etiquette - HaTeD - 08-30-2022
(08-30-2022, 09:29 AM)FaeLenx Wrote: If nobody else is posting then maybe it will get back to your turn.
If nobody else is posting then maybe you shoudl consider if you should post too.
Sorry, I'm not a sheep. I frown on this kind of advice or manipulation or whatever point you're trying to make here Polly.
To the OP, It doesn't feel like a callout post, but for once I feel like if you're running into this issue of forced stalling then I wouldn't have waited todo something like this or let someone know. However, to contribute to the topic? I will say there are times when I myself am stumped to make an action and genuinely take the time to assess the battlefield. I can't agree with forcing pvp scenarios in this community where they aren't at least given time to think about what actions they want to take. One minute is far from enough.
RE: PVP Etiquette - lalchi - 08-30-2022
1 minute is SO small
I've caught players trying 1 minute pvp and got timed out. Not because they were on RP but because they were just thinking of their next move.
PVP is different from PVE. While in PVE you can fast and spam your actions because you've become used to it. PVP can change depeding of the foe capabilities and moves.
1 minute is not even enough to act without pressure.
As said before,
and many time during events,
Post AFTER Actions is reccomended.
It raise other issues
But it doesn't make your turn stale and even more, it avoid unpredicatable consequence that wasn't plan on the post.
( Like your 95% hit move missing)
RE: PVP Etiquette - FaeLenx - 08-31-2022
It doesn't make you a sheep to be moderately aware of and understanding of other people's preferences for how long a fight should last. With RP? Easily an hour. Without RP? Half of that. If they want their actions to speak for themselves and don't feel the need to gussy up every 4 momentum guard with a post about its efficacy to waste your time then you can be nice and not waste their time either. Post after your turn is up and keep it reasonable in length and time.
A one minute combat action time is good so long as everyone's aware of it and nobody's busy trying to watch youtube or something off to the side. Pretty much always, the only reason someone could take that long to figure out their turn is if they only switch back to the screen when they hear their turn timer going off and have to figure out why half of the enemy team is on the ground and who owns what youkai or some other complicated arrangement that they weren't being responsible or reasonable enough to keep track of when they could have been watching it.