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+--- Thread: Mozu Otoshi (/showthread.php?tid=9829)
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Mozu Otoshi - Snake - 12-29-2022
This skill is amazing visually, but for its 6M cost, it leaves much to promise. I've been testing it and tried to stack as much SWA as possible to use it with that, but in the end, due to DEF and Armor blocking most of its damage, even on bosses like Fenrirberus, it deals quite the inferior damage my basic hits can easily outdo by a long shot.
![[Image: image.png]](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/414303182752317460/1058110627375231176/image.png)
![[Image: image.png]](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/414303182752317460/1058110724397863033/image.png)
![[Image: image.png]](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/414303182752317460/1058110751094620271/image.png)
![[Image: image.png]](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/414303182752317460/1058110770132553729/image.png)
Painful Grip deals way more damage, ignores Evade and ignores Protection, than literally throwing someone on their heads. This skill could be reworked a little in this manner:
- If the opponent was Painfully Grappled, this skill cannot be used. ("Your claws get in the way of the attempt!" or "Your opponent shakes you off, while in pain!")
- If the opponent is not wearing a Helmet accessory slot, it has a chance to inflict Clumsy for 2 rounds.
- Damage ignores Evasion.
- Damage ignores Protection.
- (OPTIONAL) Damage is (100% SWA) + (35% of the Target's Missing HP).
Reasons why:
- It costs 6M total. (3M to Grapple, 3M to use the skill.)
- Grapple is not a given, it's a chance, so people can't really crutch on this.
- You cannot walk-grapple-slam people, because it costs 6M total.
- Even if this ignores evade, CEL-based people have a trait that allows them to worm out of grapples easier, thus making this less optimal to be used as a counter, but a risky option. (Or at least it will be once it gets changed).
- This costs a sub-hand slot that could be another weapon (for Rogues/Magic Gunners) or a shield (for Soldiers).
- This skill requires your opponent to end their turn in melee range, which is rare in this meta.
- This gives access to more 'grapple' uses for other characters that are not Shaitan.
- This animation is too damn good to not be used because the skill is in need of a tone up.
I don't think the damage needs to be changed, by the way. Nor the extra need of LUC so you can make a full use of the skill's potential. Just the ways of making it a little more guaranteed after so much setup this skill requires.
Here's other desperate attempts, to see if I can get any bigger numbers on it.
![[Image: image.png]](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1057793111071391874/1058117318519029830/image.png)
![[Image: image.png]](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1057793111071391874/1058117590221848676/image.png)
Looks like not even high critical modifiers can do this skill justice.
RE: Mozu Otoshi - Autumn - 12-29-2022
I think the Knockdown shouldn't be tied to both a critical hit and status infliction, that alone would make it worth using, especially given there is a way to grapple targets for 1m now.
RE: Mozu Otoshi - Poruku - 12-30-2022
Certainly one of those cases of grapple skill + shaitan being q balance nightmare. I'd say it'd be fine to make it usable by shaitan grapplers but with reduced damage, still. Also, KD is pretty good. I think all this skill needs is a bit more damage and not relying on crit
RE: Mozu Otoshi - Snake - 01-04-2023
Snake Lash needs you to use Rising Tide before that, since both targets need to be airborne for it to be usable so I'd not count that in this equation.
And I'd rather the gloves deactivate additional Grapple effects in general. It'll be a nightmare to balance this around Shaitan, and I think letting Mozu Otoshi be the 'item version of a Shaitan's painful grip' makes it more cool.
RE: Mozu Otoshi - Anhita - 01-07-2023
Im not sure I entirely like the idea of just deciding an item should be less effective for X race when it revolves around what they are good at.
Its already barely worth it to use it as it is over equipping two weapons with on-hit effects and just twindancing
But maybe thats just me.
RE: Mozu Otoshi - Snake - 01-08-2023
The reason why is that any buff this gets, Shaitan will benefit twice as much.
RE: Mozu Otoshi - Poruku - 01-09-2023
I think it's fair because shaitan are in a position that limits design choices.
If shaitan didn't exist, you could make an item that adds like 100 damage on a grapple. But since they exist, it would be op. Basically grapple is in this weird state between op (shaitan) and weak (non shaitan) and thus anything that modifies grapple has to grapple with this reality.
So I think it's fine to just mess with stuff so shaitans are still best grapplers but they can also use the items and not be too op while other people can also use the items and not be too weak.
RE: Mozu Otoshi - Snake - 01-17-2023
Revision #2
Quote:The flying ninja slam technique of rumor. Can only target an enemy you are grappling within 1 Range.
You jump with your grappled target into the air, then fall down, slamming them head-first into the ground, dealing Blunt physical damage that can critically hit, which ignores protection and evasion.
Upon slamming them down, it knocks the target and all enemies within 2 range, 3 tiles away, and inflicts Knock Down. (Non-target enemies have a luck-based chance instead to be Knocked Down.)
If the damage was a critical hit, it is increased by the target's Scaled DEF and there is also a status-infliction based chance they will be inflicted with a status effect based on their Armor Type (Heavy = Stun, Light/Unarmored = Clumsy+Silenced), until your next round.
- Blunt Damage is equal to 120% SWA + 30% Target's Missing HP.
- It does not damage anyone beyond the target. (BUT, it could deal 100% SWA as Earth physical damage that can be resisted or evaded.)
- The Status Infliction used by this skill is only 50+Scaled GUI% of your total.
- This skill has a 8 round cooldown.
Basically making it a skill with a long cooldown, which has the clear role of a finishing move, that can be better used by people who utilize Guile in so to keep its theme as a 'ninja thing'. The technique itself uses the opponent's defenses against them, and leads to a cool theme behind the skill.
Again I say, I have no idea how to make this skill fun while not making Shaitan broken, and I'll reiterate that I'd rather have Painful Grip nerfed if this ends buffed.
RE: Mozu Otoshi - renowner - 01-21-2023
It already seemed a bit too strong, and about the limit of what i'd feel comfortable with after the first three lines. But then it just keeps going. . .
More damage based on defense? STUN? CLUMSY AND SILENCE AND KNOCKDOWN???? This is insane. Even more so that it isn't status infliction chance.
And it also isn't a finisher. Giving a skill an eight turn cooldown doesn't make it okay either, I feel that it'd be completely insane in that scenario.
Ether invitation is a finisher. It takes 4m and makes them unmarkable for awhile, turning off most of your class.
Execution is a finisher, it only does good damage on low hp opponents, and undoes their knockdown.
The Boxer finisher is a finisher, it turns off your boxer damage multiplier from removing all your Schwartz Sturm.
This. . .This is not a finisher.
The only issues I currently have with the skill are that:
1: It doesn't currently ignore evade. It should. They're already grappled.
2: It knocks back, breaking your grapple. I feel that since grapple doesn't last long already, that it shouldn't knock them away.
The only changes i'd see personally would be then:
3m, 0 cd, only affects a grappled enemy. Status chance to knockdown, 100% chance on a crit.
Can crit. Uses the SWA of your weapon. All as per normal.
But also does not knock them away.
Not much of a change, but still a buff. And it wouldn't fly in the face of grapple's gameplan any longer.
Making it better against monsters is always an option too, so it retains those style points.
It didn't look like the move crit in your first post however, so I can't really compare the damage. It should be doing the same damage as your basic attack, really.
Recall that shaitans get powerful grapples, and that naga get grapples with a certain racial trait, and that Demon Hunter gets a 1m Grapple, (If both are aerial, so you can combo rising tide + Stance Swap + Grapple + Stance swap back + Ozuchi.) and that grapple on its own can be pretty detrimental to some enemy builds. The 6m argument isn't as strong in my opinion here when all these grapple options exist.
I would however also be all for making the ninja cote item itself get buffed to increase your grapple chance a bit.
It'd make sense, and the main drawback of grapple is the fact that its generally a 75% chance if people have that one trait.
Additionally the crit damage is probably just pure guile, I think it should take your weapon into account. And if it doesn't, then the base damage should be raised to 120%.
RE: Mozu Otoshi - Snake - 01-22-2023
That was me trying to put too many eggs in one basket and turn it into monk-suplexes-train technique, it's insane I know, but it'd make the skill more worth being used on its occasional long cooldown windows. But if simplicity and effectiveness is needed rather than making this busted, I'd say you're on the right track.
I don't mind it knocking back because that's what keeps you from spamming it on a single enemy, like how Shaitan's Painful Grip works. At the very LEAST I would like seeing Mozu Otoshi ignoring protection and evasion.
The numbers I've played with are very small and even when gouged, tend to be under 85 damage, due to 100% SWA not being all that good for a baseline, so... Added to what you have:
- Damage must ignore evade and protection.
- It should still knockback, but in a straight line like how Warding Rune works, and only one tile away.
- Maybe have it cost 1M in trade of it getting a long cooldown instead?
- Also yes, +15% chance for Grapple on Ninja Kote gloves would be nice.