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+--- Thread: Watchful eye (/showthread.php?tid=9872)
Watchful eye - Poruku - 01-23-2023
This skill went from totally useless to something actually very powerful, to the point that single skill shuts down many strategies. It's fine that it exists, but there should be some counterplay options.
I would suggest the skill gets a cooldown and a shortened duration so there is a gap that people can use to get past it. In addition, the lack of cooldown means using VA's obscure is pointless
RE: Watchful eye - caliaca - 01-23-2023
Obscure isn't totally useless, it's fine if you're willing to trade 3M for 3M. This can often be perfectly fine in the case where you're running twin dance and easily able to get 2M from crits in your turn to give you an overall M advantage. In that case, obscure is quite useful because it means the other person will be continuing to spend a greater amount of M percentage wise than you are.
This is less useful if they're ghost or can match your extra 2M from crits. That makes it totally useless.
I do however generally agree with what you're saying though. Give it some gap.
RE: Watchful eye - Poruku - 01-23-2023
Sure you can gain a momentum advantage but you have to do that without hitting their back. Since you can't obscure, get in their back, and attack, unless you rough tumble but that only gives you one attack. So at best you're doing 2 actions from the front (better hope they have no riposte and they can't parry) then removing watchful eye and hoping this momentum exchange wins you the matchup. A bit of a weird dynamic imo.
And the main issue is for builds that NEED to hit the back because they are using a weapon that can be parried and riposted. So for Kensei/VA they are fucked regardless against a BK using this.
Also Hikage/Tsukikage already completely bypass watchful eye because the guy doing the watching turns to the position you were at previously, funnily enough still getting hit in the back. So those don't enter the equation.
RE: Watchful eye - Kameron8 - 01-24-2023
(01-23-2023, 10:38 PM)Poruku Wrote: And the main issue is for builds that NEED to hit the back because they are using a weapon that can be parried and riposted. So for Kensei/VA they are fucked regardless against a BK using this.
can confirm, am a kensei/va with a sword
Being forced to play into something like stalemate 24/7 makes things impossible, the damage you do is negligible compared to something like checkmate (which is guaranteed after stalemating to flatfoot). The hard counter skill, Obscure, only results in you using more FP than the soldier while still being unable to get passed their front that turn in most circumstances.
RE: Watchful eye - Autumn - 01-24-2023
The game is littered with many mechanics that will punish you for not attacking directly behind an opponent, so much so that Watchful Eye tracking movement skills would be very frustrating to play against I'd think.
I cannot speak fully as I have not encountered this situation yet, but I would like to assume that my assumption is correct, and I also trust Kameron's opinion as well.
Case in point: Rapid Kick would be useless as a skill if watchful eye was applied to me vs a riposte user:
![[Image: tZFMitU.png]](https://i.imgur.com/tZFMitU.png)
RE: Watchful eye - InsainArcaneBirdbrain - 01-24-2023
(01-23-2023, 05:22 PM)Poruku Wrote: This skill went from totally useless to something actually very powerful, to the point that single skill shuts down many strategies. It's fine that it exists, but there should be some counterplay options.
I would suggest the skill gets a cooldown and a shortened duration so there is a gap that people can use to get past it. In addition, the lack of cooldown means using VA's obscure is pointless
I don't think the skill's really as bad as you say in practice, especially for the class who cares the most about the butt-stabs: VA. You say there should be counterplay options, but I can already count at least four specific ones in the context of VA.
1. Obscure is a momentum trade yes, but as someone else pointed out usually leads to the net gain for a twin dance user. Heck, if you're in front of the target, you can Obscure -> Rough Tumble -> Cutthroat in order to force them to either waste their entire turn resetting it, or giving up and just attacking.
2. Pocket sand, while once per fight, does buy room to work around watchful eye as the effect doesn't work when the target is blinded. This extends to any blind really, I'm just giving the reliable option every rogue has access to.
3. Teleporting to voidgates also works around the skill as it is indeed a teleport. Note that watchful eye requires LINE OF SIGHT in order to lock on, meaning that as long as you don't movement skill or base move within the cone of view in front of the watchful eye user, they don't auto turn.
4. Not exclusively a VA thing, but several dagger effects have means of bypassing watchful eye- that being the kage daggers and Fangfare effect.
This is on top of the fact that nothing is stopping a VA from just attacking from range with throwing daggers or otherwise since besides losing on bonus flank damage, daggers are one of the weapon types that bypass the directional parries (eviter and stalemate). As for the other cases like Autumn pointed out above where other classes have synergy as in with riposte, I still don't think that breaks the skill (As for the given example, I'm not entirely sure why you'd be rapid kicking in melee range against someone you know has riposte to begin with considering the skill can be enhanced to be ranged).
When we boil down the actual mechanics that rely on side or rear attacks, these include:
1. Rogue Flank
2. VA backstabbing bonuses
3. Cutthroat bonus effects
4. Flank (the mechanic)
5. Phase Fang (For determining teleport style)
Out of these, only rogue/VA are affected in any meaningful way (and as I've given examples for, have more than ample means of counterplay). I suppose one could make an argument for flank hit, but watchful eye forcing the opponent to look at you gives you guaranteed chivalry bonuses, so that kind of evens out if not results in a boon when dealing with a dodgy watchful eye user. Outside making frontal parries and riposte more reliable, I don't see how this skill is in need of any change from its current iteration, or in the context of OP's post in need of more counterplay options, as they certainly exist.
RE: Watchful eye - Kameron8 - 01-25-2023
(01-24-2023, 02:10 PM)InsainArcaneBirdbrain Wrote: Outside making frontal parries and riposte more reliable, I don't see how this skill is in need of any change from its current iteration, or in the context of OP's post in need of more counterplay options, as they certainly exist.
Frontal parries are so strong that this alone makes it more debilitating to deal with as a Spear/Axe/Sword user than a dagger user stabbing from the front. Counterplay exists for some class setups, but it's very much a near-auto-lose scenario for a few others. Unless you somehow manage to luck out and never proc an 85% Stalemate, I guess.
I would at the very least like to see Obscure grant temporary immunity to it for a few rounds.
RE: Watchful eye - Poruku - 01-25-2023
Yeah honestly parry and riposte are what make watchful eye truly powerful. Daggers can hit from the front, but sword/axe/spear can't afford to
RE: Watchful eye - renowner - 01-25-2023
I haven't really played against watchful eye post-buff to weigh in on this, but I will note that blind disables it. . . However my only real issue is them turning to face you when you're damaged. There isn't much counterplay you can do there. Being able to teleport behind them is a fine counterplay, blinding them is also fine. But if you strike them from behind, I think having them turn around instantly is a bit iffy.