[Snake]

1 or 2 round cooldown on Seiryuu's Hunter Wind also works better than changing a whole mechanic to make Youkai more silly. It's not like Bonder doesn't have skills that make Bonded Youkai perform some stunts like a spinning slash or whatever, and Punishing Winds still exists.

Also, I'd vouch for Summoner (Base Class) to get more skills like it, that make you take control of the Youkai's action and position them well for big number damage, by using your own Momentum. Youkai being autonomous (in a sense of damaging) is what makes Summoner so broken in terms of fighting against. It's your 7M, and the Youkai's 7M together for 14M of action economy vs a single enemy's 7M.

TLDR: Cooldowns on all Youkai spells will be a treat to consider. Summoner should get some skills that influence their Youkai, trade their Momentum for Youkai manipulation so after the nerf, Youkai is stops being seen as a 'second or third player in the party' but a 'part of a Summoner's playstyle and rotation', given these skills are worth being used, that is.

[Senna]

A cool down? No. Youkais have one ability. Without that they become completely useless outside of meat shielding. Why on earth would you suggest a cool down. That's not a nerf, that's over kill.

---

I like how people are finally catching on to the problem even after I mention what it was.

Hunting Wind with Punishing wind needs a nerf. Not the normal Hunting wind. Seiryuu without Punishing Wind is pretty okay? Not the best of the best considering how easy it to kite. I believe the NORMAL Seiryuu still needs its 30% hunt else the youkai would be completely useless without needing its Punishing wind active.

I personally don't like the idea of Ascending to make usage of Seiryuu being mandatory if Hunting wind got nerfed across the board.

So, how would we look about this? Suggestion?

Punishing wind: While active, half the level of hunting it applies while punishing wind is active, and the pull being only half effective or resistible (Probly let Knockback immune weaken it or something). I would say nerf the HP/Tankiness a bit but, let's see if these will be enough first. As I said, I rather not just dive into redoing stats as a solution. 


I understand, they're Ascended youkais, they're suppose to be strong. I get that. But a little bit a nerf won't hurt too much.

[Kameron8]

From what I can tell, a lot of people are interpreting this entire post as ''yeah, nerf Seiryuu!'' when that ignores what I'm seeing as the main point of the thread.  Seiryuu probably should be nerfed in some capacity, but that wouldn't really address the issue of everyone ignoring a large chunk of the Youkai in favor of some clear outliers.

For example, when is the last time any Summoner has used Firefox or Orbello to any notable effect?

Seiryuu, and to a lesser extent, stuff like Drowned Woman and Haku/Chun, have either good stats, good damage, good effects, or all three.  Youkai like Firefox, Orbello, Byakko, etc, do not.  The issue I still have, however, is how egregiously difficult it would be to allow Summoners to exist as is when every Youkai they summon is as dangerous or useful as Seiryuu. 

...

What I don't know, however, is how anyone would be able to fight against Summoners if everything they summoned was viably powerful.  As you already mentioned, it's difficult surmounting the skewed action economy when fighting Summoners.  Because of that, I don't see how every Youkai could be given sensible stat lines without other reworks that reallocated Summoner power.

The overwhelming fixation on how to nerf Seiryuu in this thread pretty clearly demonstrates that other people share this sentiment.

...

Far as I am concerned however summoner is just jank, and due to the potential to just burn out people with numbers in a game with this momentum economy.  I am like eh on trying to balance it at all when it feels inherently busted.

So unless there's a creative solution for changing Summoner or Youkai as a whole, I don't see how feasible it's going to be for every Youkai to get sane, useful stat lines.

[Senna]

I was honestly about to make a thread on Byakko and a few others until I saw this post. Yes, I do believe some youkai needs to be touched on. Some are flat out outdated or need some adjustment. Like I've said before, I still don't believe a stats redo is needed.

Why? Because that will cause far too many problems. It will either make Summoners too powerful or nerf them down too much. That's what I'm trying to avoid.

What I was going to suggest for those youkais was, if their abilities were to synchronize better with them. Enchanting or adding onto their Evoke thus moving them up the ladder. I AM going to make a list of what I believe could help but I didn't want to add it to THIS thread since, as the title showed, focus more towards Seiryuu.

[Balor]

A cool down? No. Youkais have one ability. Without that they become completely useless outside of meat shielding. Why on earth would you suggest a cool down. That's not a nerf, that's over kill.

---

I like how people are finally catching on to the problem even after I mention what it was.

Hunting Wind with Punishing wind needs a nerf. Not the normal Hunting wind. Seiryuu without Punishing Wind is pretty okay? Not the best of the best considering how easy it to kite. I believe the NORMAL Seiryuu still needs its 30% hunt else the youkai would be completely useless without needing its Punishing wind active.

I personally don't like the idea of Ascending to make usage of Seiryuu being mandatory if Hunting wind got nerfed across the board.

So, how would we look about this? Suggestion?

Punishing wind: While active, half the level of hunting it applies while punishing wind is active, and the pull being only half effective or resistible (Probly let Knockback immune weaken it or something). I would say nerf the HP/Tankiness a bit but, let's see if these will be enough first. As I said, I rather not just dive into redoing stats as a solution. 


I understand, they're Ascended youkais, they're suppose to be strong. I get that. But a little bit a nerf won't hurt too much.

A little nerf would be nice. I'd rather they not get gutted with 6m summons, or gutting hunted winds damage amp considering you're dealing 210ish tops against most folks if Seiryuu hits you twice with Hunters Wind etc. But I'd rather they be used to support a build and compliment their summoner, rather than a crutch.

Nerf the global damage slightly, and maybe the range of Hunters wind? It's almost like DOUBLE the range of the standard. Even just a loss of 1 range would be enough to satiate me. I'm not super hard to please even if I get on about things constantly.

[SolAndLuna]

It actually literally is double the range of the usual Hunter Wind. Lowering the range for Hunter Wind during Punishing Winds a bit would likely be enough by itself, to be honest - the global damage dealt isn't really the key issue anyway in this case, compared to being able to drag someone over from 6 range away.

[Perdition]

The main point of the thread is indeed not just nerfing Ascended Seiryuu, but bringing other youkai up to speed too. For people concerned about tweaking existing youkai to have better stats making summoner too strong, here's the thing. Summoner is ALWAYS going to be really stupid in 1v1s because that's just how this game works. Youkai would have to be literally 100 hp across the board for them to ever be tame in 1v1s--basically, summoner would have to be deep in the trash tier.

Rather than trying to balance Summoner for 1v1s, it should be balanced for team fights. If you look at it that way, it's clear to see that many youkai need some love. They shouldn't all be Seiryuu-level durable, but some of them being able to tank 2-3 hits via better defenses or more optimized stats for triggering evasion at a decent chance would go a long way in adding to more youkai diversity. Many youkai are taken just for passives, or niche install scenarios to counter specific elements. Those youkai aren't there to be summoned because they're a liability in most fights. They'd just get one shot or they don't do enough on their own, so you wasted momentum summoning them.

Things like Seiryuu and Drowned Woman, and somewhat Chun as others have mentioned are what you constantly see summoned--maybe the auto summon Izabe since you can position it to safety before anything breaks out. However, you'll never see someone summon a Phase Python or Carbuncle, etc.

That's the end goal. Maybe whenever you fight a summoner the only youkai you ever see on the map won't be Seiryuu if other youkai have better stat spreads.

[Autumn]

I do fully agree that balancing summoners for 1v1s is an absolute nightmare, some builds are just not going to ever be capable of taking them on without some serious help or inconsequential AoE damage, its they're potent in team fights with lower participant numbers as well but generally the more people you have on your side the more of a chance you have vs a singular summoner.

Regarding the other youkai, I would like to see many more youkai getting a buff, in particular the non-DW Night youkai, Avians and Fairies are among the weakest and could stand different roles, I think that a youkai's race should attribute them to a certain class that they can always fall back on so they might feel fulfilling, Avians and Fairies being supportive, or Nights being disruptive.

You can read many many more of my thoughts in my organized list of youkai right here (https://neus-projects.net/forums/showthr...p?tid=7691), which I mentioned earlier as most likely being able to assist Dev in helping bump up the other youkai, and see their flaws.

I think I've had enough reading about Seiyruu though, everyone is generally in agreeance that yes he needs tuning down, at this point we're just bickering some of the silliest 'how's'