[Catharsis]

To start off, I want to say this is my first forum post ever in the existence of ever, so I'm sorry if it's terrible to read.


great. Now that has been said! Welcome to my first forum post! Ahe-ahe-ah-ah-ahem.

Antagonists! They're strange, aren't they? They exist, probably! But what does that have to do with you?
Well, I wanna bring up a simple question:

what do YOU want in an antagonist?

Do you want raunchy horror? Do you want thrilling action? Or do you just want more chances at character development outright?
Do you even care? Or do you just want some ding dang dong action that isn't the usual character conflict?

What makes an antag truly an antag to you? What makes it fun to play against? What would you consider not cash money?
If you had suggestions for people who WANT to play antags, what would you give them?

Do you like it when the enemy has puzzles for you? Or do you prefer it to be more action-pact with battles?
Do you like it when there's a damsel(or mansel) in distress? What would make taking part in fighting an antag worth it in your eyes?

These are all questions I ask you! And more! Really, I just want your opinion on Antags and what you as a player want from them

What I don't want this to be is an attack on people who HAVE played antags, or tried to in the past.
Don't use this post as an opportunity to attack other people.
(This was not made by a person who is in the process of making an antag, not at all, you're just reading too much into it, I promise)

[Snake]

Damn, why did you make the most important thing so small? If you need tips and tricks on antagonism it's okay to just ask around. Alas... let's go with the spirit of the topic.

I like antagonists whose reasons are better than mine to do what they 'need' to. People who are not 'antagonizing' someone else's story, but being the heroes of their own. Of course, OOCly, without disconcerting people who will stand in opposition of your goals (and obviously not expecting the same courtesy, since we've been having a spree of bad antags, people are more disposed for being monke over newer ones who don't top Sawrock's things from 5 years ago, 6 now?)

What I don't like in antagonists is how some people use the name to justify their shitty behavior. It's like trying to run on a sprint marathon with a motorcycle then reaching the end goal and saying 'haha it was all me, I'm the best' while OBVIOUSLY YOU'D WIN ANYWAY. Of course if you're being a vile, idiotic, detestable, annoying and utterly little shit people will hate and antagonize you. But don't worry, those types of people often get banned or in trouble for it anyway. It's a matter of decency and knowing how to play with the authorities over writing trusted to you.

Anyway, ahem, please do something that's tied to the other countries that don't allow Sigrogana in. Sigrogana at the moment has been always too stacked with happenings, be it Black Beasts, Seto, Falcons, Sawrock's olde' troupe, random shitlords, etc etc etc. I speak this mostly as a Guard than a player, because like this I can see the influx of whatever crimes people do or not get away with.

So yes yes, try turning a new leaf in a story on another country, be it major or minor. If we have good antags anywhere else it will make people want to break out of the 'good ol' that is hanging around Cellsvich or the Arena (with a pint of Dormeho sometimes). Avoid these three places and you'll be a cookie in everyone's eyes.

As for what to do? I trust you'll find a way. Though it's like I said at the beginning of this. It can be of any scale, massive and country-wide to simple petty theft. As long as it's a reason to make the antag the 'hero', and able to convince other players into joining them despite certainly knowing that's 'bad' to be done? Boi, you'll become a Sigrogana Legend in no time.

[K Peculier]

I just want to kidnap princesses and place them on train tracks while I twirl my evil moustache to the chime of high piano notes.

(If you're serious about making an antagonist with more weight I recommend getting in touch with me or another Eventmin/GM so you aren't immediately gooble-gonked by 'heroes' in the first encounter.)

[Aqua]

Totally not coming from a person making an antag nope! 100% believe that!

In terms of Antags, I see pretty much what Kunai said above, to be honest. In terms of Genre? Whatever fits the theme at the end of the day. I also prefer there to be a mixture of RP and Mechanical fighting because right now we lack a tonne of the former that way it allows people to be involved without having to mechanically build to even take part or even be some kind of influence.

God yes please other places need things happening there. Not a single other place sees any activity outside of events. As kunai said Sigrogana is always the centre of attention which really just pushes all other possibilities of developments for other cities. Other cities need love!

Other than that? I don't really have much more to say.

[Sawrock]

There’s a big book of “rules” I follow by when I play villains (which I do more than protagonists, as I find it more entertaining). I don’t have them written down, except right now.

1. Don’t have a concrete backstory
Have a general idea or some bullet points when you make a villain, but leave some room to flesh things out as RP goes. You’ll surprise yourself about what you’ll learn about your own character when it comes to the point where you want to introduce a plot point, or turn a joke throwaway line into canon. Bloeden wasn’t even a mutant-making mage until I needed a force to attack Cellsvich with, and I wanted something more thematic than a monster rush or bandit attack.

2. Hate most, like some
A villain should have something about them that gets most people on edge, sone way to hate and despise them. Pitecoll thirsted for preteens, Bloeden was a rapist and slaver, Kasan was an idiot and loved to torture people... but each of them had qualities that SOME of the population could attach to. Pitecoll enjoyed fights that challenged him so he befriended Julien who he saw as a worthy opponent. Bloeden was a bit of a quick speaker prone to silly analogies so those who were uncaring of the law appreciated his company as he did theirs. Kasan, despite being 34, had a child-like innocence that people enjoyed. Having more bad traits than good is deeply important though, as otherwise you’re not a villain- there’s no reason for people to be driven into conflict with you.

3. Consent is everything
Attack people like crazy, rob them, kick their siblings. Just make sure you ask them in LOOC first if they’re okay with how roleplay is going. An unwilling RP partner is an unmotivated one, and it’s not good to hold selfish sessions. People will be okay with harm to their characters for the sake of a good story- and if they’re not wanting such a story, don’t force it on them. It takes two to party.

4. Accept all consequences
If you’re playing a villain, it’s best to have a backlist of characters you want to play. People may complain about jail time and executions, but it was honestly worse when people were causing problems in the public square and no guards existed to tone it down. Work with the GMs and your fellow players to make a good story; your character may die, but you yourself will live on to be a better roleplayer and member of the community.

5. Do not rely on events
Use events. Try to avoid them when possible. Having organic roleplay in between big bashes makes for more time to develop your character, making them deeper and more engaging to play.

That’s just how I operate things. There’s plenty of other methods, and different people may enjoy different things about being a villain and thus operate things differently. And that’s fine. In the end, as long as we enjoy the game, villain or no, then we’re having our time well spent in the game here. Thank you all for having given me such wonderful opportunities to roleplay in.

[FatherCrixius]

Don't be a dime a dozen 'event only antagonist' that only has stakes in isolated areas, it's cheap and next to never has any narrative weight. Opt for more 'petty' antagonism, establish yourself as a staying 'threat' to player characters.

Avoid making yourself manic or overly sympathetic, remember that every good villain rationalizes themself as doing the right thing, for one reason or another.

Know that few people are going to offer you resistance or even return your antagonization, and that it will be difficult to get a reaction - this is something that made me avoid playing an antagonist myself. You'll either be goon-ganked by over-reactive protags or receive such a lukewarm reaction that it would feel unjustified, even for a villain, to continue antagonising the vacant.

There's probably more but i'm sure other people in the thread will pick up on.

[Miller]

What I want out of an antagonistic figure in a story is not for them to be just an opposing force or a standard JRPG villian ripped out of Dragon Quest without too much motivations for their actions; but for them to have personal conflict with other characters.

Right now the main source of antagonism that I see on SL2 primarily falls under the 'I will do something immoral', whether it be straight up robbing, necromancy, murder and/or bombings among other things. Antagonistic figures should have ideals which don't mix with the current climate of the world or interpersonal matters which lead them to come into conflict with the world around them or the people around them, scale doesn't necessarily matter in this. This isn't dismissing the kind of antagonists that do something immoral mind you, but there's a huge draught of antagonistic figures that are more personal in nature.

I don't really have much more to add to this, but the TLDR: Antagonists are an opposing force, not necessarily good or or bad on the moral spectrum and are characters as well, treating them as just a villain is fine, but it gets old when that's the main kind of antagonist.

[Sawrock]

I agree completely except the “every good villain rationalizes themselves as doing the right thing”. Three out of seventeen of my villains (that I can think of off the top of my head) think they’re in the right.

A good outer example of a villain who doesn’t think they’re right is Xykon of the Order of the Stick.
A good example of a villain who does think they’re in the right is Stanley from Erfworld.

Both are tropes. Both have their uses.

[Ham]

Everyone already has amazing points but ama try too

But first, time to activate the neurons of the single half brain cell I have.

• What makes an Antagonist?
  
  Someone who opposes the views of the Protagonist, good or bad. Did you make a bad antag if some of the protag/hero players agree with you? FUCK no. And that's why I feel making an antag deliberately evil/made Just to oppose the good guys, is the worst move you can make when creating the character.
  
  As Sawrock said, don't have too much set in stone and let the organic RP fill in the rest. Not every antag has to think they're right.
  
  I don't think Genres have to matter honestly, it's just a matter of can the players stay motivated? But at the same time, a certain degree of creepyness is always nice to see as long as the other player(s) are okay with it, like, Ehren isn't a villain but ofcourse people recoil when they see him fill an animal inside out with spiders that crawl their way out of it's stomach.
  

• What do I like in Antags?
  
  I like me a good balance sometimes, wether it's the ballsy ones, the ones that start out like a bitch and get hardened with time from underdog to topdog, the ones that think they're in the right, but most importantly... I LOVE the ones that'll hurt like hell when you kill them (Say Doc Ock in PS4 Spidey)- or those that discover how to hurt you most. Oh and also uh, sometimes the very blatant anime evil villain is a boring archetype to watch yeah, gets old fast, annoying too.
  
  Puzzles are a good, so are big beefy fights, again I like a balance. Too much of either kinda ruins it, but I always adore stuff that makes you use your brain- like an Armored villain you gotta fight, but the puzzle is you gotta compromise and strike the tendons without armor he has on, that's a balance that makes you have a Eureka moment of all Eurekas.
  
  Damsels in distress and High Stakes can make or break a scene, don't overdo it and don't do it just for doing it, and don't make it your entire gimmick.
  
  One of my Antags, although I don't play him as much, is in plain sight. He hides his identity, his race, literally tells no one Anything about himself except afew things here and there like 'I used to be an adventurer' or his name, and then.. he watches, as everyone opens to him, telling them their entire life story. Then he takes them out for a drink and asks. "Am I your friend?", ofcourse, if they answer yes, he'll ask them. "Then what do you know about me aside from X and Y?". He grew closer to them, he started feeling like a friend or even something closer to them, and then whips them with a vibe check to snap them back to reality. Hurts even further once you reveal, the small things they DID know about him, were all lies. Little by little the comfort zone of a house you were in with him has turned into a close room with someone you know nothing about and you start to panic, what happens next? Find out next time on the next episode of Dragon Ball Z.
  But seriously, Buildup is something I'm horrible at and I try to improve that with the character I mentioned above, see your weakest point via playing an Antag and try to reverse-uno that shit.
  
  
  

• What I hate to see?
  
  When stuff overstays it's welcome (Like a plotline taking forever just because), or exists for the sole reason of existing (a Damsel that needed to exist JUST because they needed higher stakes, Local Edgelord Ham advice of the day says please don't let the edge be there JUST cause, it can ruin something entirely.), and ofcourse people who bitch and moan- from Either said. You're in this so accept the consequences and let SL2 Jesus take the wheel. Oh also something that I don't hate but don't like: Personal Villains. Because at most, it'll be 'this villain is personal to this char', and that... can make some people look useless, that they're there for no reason. In other cases where it's acceptable if it's a Family plotline, say two brothers avenging their mom's killer. Other than that? You're taking fucking Ironman to avenge Batman's parents.
  I also have a distaste of people who want to rely on Mechanical fights and only mechanical fights, because I don't trust like that in all honesty, you might just be someone who knows how to break the game and wants to finish the villain that's about to start in like the first second after they were made (More on that later). My fav fights were all RP'd out, like Marco's death at the shrine. Something about IC fighting just makes me Go ya feel? It's an RP game first, and I wanna take that to the extreme.
  
  That said let's continue, there's a difference between 'Nooo you can't jail me I sue' bitching, and what Crix said. I one hundred agree with Crix that it's difficult to play the antag in alot of cases because the moment you're found out you'll immediately get swarmed by people who will take the chance and try to play the hero. So my two-cents are: Even if the villain is solo and works alone, contact OOC support like Eventmins to help set you up with something balanced, or GMs to tell them 'hey I feel like if I do X, Y will happen. I'm fine with Z but not Q.' and they'll understand.
  
  And yes, God yes, what Kunai said. I get Sigrogana is the main land and is in the title/name but FUCK, where'd my Laws End bois go?
  

I think that's my piece!

[FatherCrixius]

I agree completely except the “every good villain rationalizes themselves as doing the right thing”. Three out of seventeen of my villains (that I can think of off the top of my head) think they’re in the right.

A good outer example of a villain who doesn’t think they’re right is Xykon of the Order of the Stick.
A good example of a villain who does think they’re in the right is Stanley from Erfworld.

Both are tropes. Both have their uses.

Can't speak for either of those, but I was referring to more that they believe their actions are- at the least, justified, not that they are simply misguided heroes. Be it perpetuating what happened to them, having a moral doctrine that harms more than it helps, or something similar. Pure, cartoonish evil is a trope that rarely enhances the characters. 'Being evil for the sake of being evil.'