[Perdition]

It's no secret that Seiryuu is by far and away the strongest of the Youkai to a point where it isn't even funny. A few patches ago, dragon base stats got tweaked downward while all the other races got increased base stats. This was a small step in the right direction, but it didn't fix the biggest issue in that aside from Seiryuu, by large the rest of the Youkai just have really shitty stat spreads.

The thing is, dragons still have the best stat spread and not only that, but Seiryuu itself has very optimized stats so it does it all. It's a good install choice and it's a great youkai to summon, especially if using with shared pain. Even if you were trying to make use of the Shapeshifter shenanigans where you install Youkai with other Youkai, Seiryuu would be the best choice to install things with.

I think this is actually less of an issue with Seiryuu itself and more of an issue with the other youkai. Don't get me wrong, Seiryuu could probably stand to have lower stats across the board, but I think the answer is making the other Youkai's stats more optimized. I mean, Seiryuu has the complete package. It has high cel, high strength, high defense, high vitality, and respectable res. Seiryuu has a decent chance of even proccing evasion on top of its good defenses making it almost player tier when ascended. It can get 30% increased damage against enemies just for attacking them and it gets +3 to all stats except vit if you have Daisangen.

Why is it that none of the other youkai have similarly optimized spreads? The only other ascended Youkai for example, Byakko, is a glass cannon that can't even evade properly. It has very low defense and res, high luck, but it also has low cel. If anything, it should have high Cel so it can focus more on evasion and evading to Seiryuu's general bulk, especially as an ascended Youkai.

When you look at the other Youkai it's even worse. Stat gains are seemingly random on them, with them neither being bulky or being evasive, leading to them being paper thin and only good as glorified turrets that act as annoyances for extra chip damage until they inevitably die to some kind of AoE. Currently a sizable portion of the server from what I've seen is playing a summoner class, and each and every one of them is rocking a Seiryuu to my knowledge unless going out of their way to not use it due to its oversaturation. 

As a summoner player, it feels bad seeing the class become so homogenized. It would be preferable to have a youkai roster that has some semblance of being unique, but Seiryuu is so much better than other Youkai that you're literally gimping yourself if you don't take it.

But again, I don't think the answer is hitting Seiryuu with a giant nerfbat. Seiryuu honestly makes summoner feel complete. You have a reliable summon that isn't just fodder for getting chip damage out, and that's a good thing. People will complain that it feels oppressive to 1v1 a summoner that uses Seiryuu, but summoners are going to be oppressive in 1v1s no matter what just by the nature of what they are. The same applies to engineers. If you have more units with their own action economy then you have a massive advantage. In team fights, Seiryuu users are not nearly as oppressive. For this reason I think it's time to have a patch dedicated to redoing the stat gains of the Youkai so they can also be competitive. Even base Seiryuu is a lot better than other Youkai, so if other Youkai can come closer to its power level it creates an environment where we can see more summon diversity. 

If Seiryuu is nerfed and nothing else, I honestly would expect it to still be the best youkai and nothing would change other than summoner's overall power level lowering, but the lack of diversity would still be there, and existing youkai would still be underwhelming.

[Kameron8]

I don't have enough recent experience to comment on Summoner power compared to other classes, but I agree that your premise is correct. Seiryuu is almost inarguably the best Youkai on average, for the reasons you've listed. A vast swathe of the other Youkai lack the stats to either survive a stiff breeze, or present no danger on offense.

I also agree with your conclusion, that a hefty rework to Youkai stats would promote variety. As a personal opinion, I believe if there were more limitations on how many Youkai you could ascend, that too would (eventually, when enough are released) allow key differences in each Summoner's arsenal.

What I don't know, however, is how anyone would be able to fight against Summoners if everything they summoned was viably powerful. As you already mentioned, it's difficult surmounting the skewed action economy when fighting Summoners. Because of that, I don't see how every Youkai could be given sensible stat lines without other reworks that reallocated Summoner power.

[Senna]

Summoner is an odd cookie. It's either really strong or really weak. A normal summoner that doesn't use the ascension youkai is much easier to handle/beat than a summoner that does.

EAST SIDE ASCENDED Seiryuu is indeed the strongest summon in the game. Punishing wind does make the youkai worth as much as a player. The normal Seiryuu isn't as bad due to its attack range and how easy it is to kite. Punishing wind Seiryuu on the other hand is very, VERY powerful.

What makes Ascended Seiryuu better? The youkai itself is quite a tankie with a decent amount of HP. If the youkai has Punishing wind active, not only is it doing +30-60 wind damage each round, it has an extremely long reach wind Hunt Wind that PULLS and inflicts Hunt.

That's the problem: AOE wind damage, super long spell that pulls someone into danger, can take hits really well and the pull that applies Hunting so the next set of Hunt Wind will hurt even more.

A status redoes for all youkai isn't exactly needed, just a nerf to its Punishing wind's with the effects it grants and lowering its defensive/HP a bit will be more than enough.

[Perdition]

The problem is just nerfing ascended Seiryuu doesn't fix the core problem which is that most of the youkai are really bad and even base Seiryuu is better than them. If you just nerf Ascended Seiryuu all that does is make Ascended Seiryuu still the best youkai by a lot, it's just worse by a margin. If you buff other youkai and limit the amount of Ascended Youkai the summoner can have, then I don't think it creates any issues while promoting youkai diversity.

[Autumn]

The problem is just nerfing ascended Seiryuu doesn't fix the core problem which is that most of the youkai are really bad and even base Seiryuu is better than them. If you just nerf Ascended Seiryuu all that does is make Ascended Seiryuu still the best youkai by a lot, it's just worse by a margin. If you buff other youkai and limit the amount of Ascended Youkai the summoner can have, then I don't think it creates any issues while promoting youkai diversity.

I would agree with you but Ascended Seiyruu is really realllly strong, on top of being physically bulky and having a decent HP stat, it also has the same damage as every other youkai + 30% hunted + a far ranged pull that rivals even Archer's pulling shot in how far you're being dragged, when youkai don't operate on the same turn order as players do this could potentially set up some combos for more than just the summoner, but even their allies.

I like that Ascended Seiyruu can work with the summoner and aid them because it really adds to the dynamic that a summoner fights alongside their youkai and doesn't just use them to zerg people, but Ascended Seiyruu's damage output is a little on the nutty side at the moment, I think that Punishing Winds and Seiyruu's hunted need toning down personally.

And as Kameron8 mentioned in a post, a limit on ascended youkai somehow would future proof for more ascensions which is one of my anticipated updates, in particular I believe an ordered list of youkai from weakest to strongest would be helpful to Dev to assist him with boosting the individual power levels of some other less than desirable youkai like Yukionna/Orbello/Jack-o-lantern etc.

As Ascensions would save the listed youkai already from irrelevancy.

Addendum: Ascended Seiyruu may be physically bulky but he's still susceptible to magic, especially if he cannot evade said magic.

[Tamaki-Kun]

I personally wouldn't want Hunted or Punishing Winds to be nerfed specifically. Hunted lasting only 2 rounds...

Why not just make summoning an Ascended Youkai 6m? That'd give the power they put out reasonable for the cost(and offer an opportunity for Dev to buff Byakko up) while also preventing Byakko and Seiryuu being put out Turn 1. This way, if more Ascended Youkai are added, a Summoner won't be willy nilly putting EVERY Ascended Youkai out on the field.

I mostly say this because Seiryuu Tessen has an invocation that gives the user Seiryuu's buff(Punishing Winds + Pull), which makes it really fun. But otherwise kind'a eh in most cases.

[Balor]

I'd personally like to see other youkai be better. I dunno Seiryuu is just the best in class, and summoner overall is an oppressive class at the worst of times. You could up the FP costs of Ascended Youkai and or nerf the duration of Seal of The East by a round or two and I think it'd bring it in line.

Far as I am concerned however summoner is just jank, and due to the potential to just burn out people with numbers in a game with this momentum economy. I am like eh on trying to balance it at all when it feels inherently busted.

[Autumn]

Ascended Youkai already have an increased FP maintenance to them, putting any more on there would start to be really punishing to grand summoner and more rewarding to Bonder, as in regards to Punishing Winds and Seiyruu's hunted, I believe that the punishing winds damage is tied to the level, so all you need to do is nerf Seiyruu's variant of the buff instead of Dragon Dance's, following this, a 30% hunted is a heck of a damage bonus for a skill that also damages and pulls you.

[Balor]

I think that while I want Seiryuu or Summoner in general nerfed. I'd suggest perhaps making Youkai have a maximum of 6 momentum per turn rather than tuning their numbers? It'd mean that Seiryuu couldn't spam Hunters Wind as often, and would have to be used with a bit more positional intelligence?

It'd also stop youkai invoke spamming overall for the better IMO.

[Perdition]

The problem is just nerfing ascended Seiryuu doesn't fix the core problem which is that most of the youkai are really bad and even base Seiryuu is better than them. If you just nerf Ascended Seiryuu all that does is make Ascended Seiryuu still the best youkai by a lot, it's just worse by a margin. If you buff other youkai and limit the amount of Ascended Youkai the summoner can have, then I don't think it creates any issues while promoting youkai diversity.

I would agree with you but Ascended Seiyruu is really realllly strong, on top of being physically bulky and having a decent HP stat, it also has the same damage as every other youkai + 30% hunted + a far ranged pull that rivals even Archer's pulling shot in how far you're being dragged, when youkai don't operate on the same turn order as players do this could potentially set up some combos for more than just the summoner, but even their allies.

I like that Ascended Seiyruu can work with the summoner and aid them because it really adds to the dynamic that a summoner fights alongside their youkai and doesn't just use them to zerg people, but Ascended Seiyruu's damage output is a little on the nutty side at the moment, I think that Punishing Winds and Seiyruu's hunted need toning down personally.

And as Kameron8 mentioned in a post, a limit on ascended youkai somehow would future proof for more ascensions which is one of my anticipated updates, in particular I believe an ordered list of youkai from weakest to strongest would be helpful to Dev to assist him with boosting the individual power levels of some other less than desirable youkai like Yukionna/Orbello/Jack-o-lantern etc.

As Ascensions would save the listed youkai already from irrelevancy.

Addendum: Ascended Seiyruu may be physically bulky but he's still susceptible to magic, especially if he cannot evade said magic.

Ascended Seiryuu should probably be nerfed, but rather than just a nerf to it I really do think buffing a good portion of the existing youkai is long overdue. Personally it feels really bad to be pigeonholed into Seiryuu due to just how much better it is than other youkai and those youkai being lackluster to begin with. Seeing 99% of summoners use the same youkai is an issue on its own imo, and just a nerf to Ascended Seiryuu doesn't fix that, even though it should be nerfed in some way. The Hunted could probably stand to go down to 15% maybe. I feel like its bulk is acceptable since it is susceptible to magic as stated before and you really only see the super bulky Seiryuus from a combo of Daisangen and Synchro Summon which inflates its stats by a lot. Maybe a small range decrease on its Hunter Wind too since it can pull from a hefty distance away.