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Senna · 09-15-2019, 06:48 PM

Okay so, I'm more amazed all the points I was going to make was already mentioned. There isn't much else I can say other than...

OPTION A and OPTION B is where its at.

DoctorMad · 09-16-2019, 12:29 PM

Never been shot by a damage stacking Quickdraw so I have a important question. Is it strong enough to make the Ring of Thorns completely overpowered, or?
Because making that shitty equip worthwhile somehow would be interesting to me.

Otherwise, oh well.

Lolzytripd · 09-16-2019, 02:18 PM

If the ring was the only item you were using...no...but each little bit helps.

Lonestar · 09-17-2019, 02:41 AM

DoctorMad post_id=37660 time=1568636998 user_id=1963 Wrote:Never been shot by a damage stacking Quickdraw so I have a important question. Is it strong enough to make the Ring of Thorns completely overpowered, or?
Because making that shitty equip worthwhile somehow would be interesting to me.

Otherwise, oh well.

I wouldn't deem RoT completly OP because while they have two benefits, they also come with two big drawbacks on top of it. On other weapons, it's just a 10 flat damage that's barely noticeable with 10% crit rate, which is pretty decent. On multishot guns, it's incredibly oppressing.

Maksimum_Fire · 09-17-2019, 04:27 AM

I'll note that I've benefited from this combo quite a bit. I frequently use 2 quickdraws in PvE, or 1 in PvP more often, and play a Shaitan, stacking up on-hit bonuses to damage in order to get high damage output. I use all of these effects listed, to great benefit in damage- I can show

One effect I want to bring up that wasn't mentioned in the OP is Battle Rush. 3 turns of +5 power, allowing for another effective 35 to 40 per volley, depending on whether I wield one or two quickdraws, with the only downside being that after three turns my skills cost an extra 5 FP. I already put 0 points in will with my Shaitan, as it's not needed on this kind of build- Even with the FP consumption of Lead Storm, which I think it'd be reasonable to make higher considering how powerful an effect it is, I just gain it all back by triggering Battle Spirits and Chivalry.

I'd also like to mention there are ways to handle an MG/DH with this setup that are unmentioned. The flat damage stacking only goes so far, and with decent tank stats you can resist it- Which means you need to invest in critical to make it work. RoT+ is super crucial to this build because of that, since it gives you a huge amount of crit in addition to big damage. But- Put simply, without consistent crit, you still fall flat, so decent defense and decent crit evade is enough to prevent someone from doing enough damage to you long enough for you to drop them, too, since they'll have shoddy defensive stats. Crit evade is already something you'd want to build to fight off one of the more meta classes right now, ghost, anyways, so it's not a stretch to just take boneheart and slap it on something to make that work. Any faith-based class with boneheart armor winds up just trampling the MG for the most part. Black knights and their crit evade passive also make mincemeat of Quickdraw users, and even a prepared Ranger, since they get 30 free crit evade, wind up messing up gun users.

Speaking of Ranger. They've got more ways than that to handle an MG- Cripple arm is, put simply, crippling to a magic gunner, regardless of what they use. In combination with effects like flip shot and the huge mobility of Rangers, it's very possible to pick up enough evade to just ignore a magic gunner's existence. And they're not the only ones- Spellthieves, Void Assassins, and others are capable of stacking enough evade in just a round or two to make sure an MG has a 0% chance of hitting them, and Spellthieves also have the Create Shade ability, combine with Tricky and Shuffle to nearly guarantee the gunner won't get the first strike off on the slippery class.

Kensei exists, too, which just deletes MGs from the game but we don't need to talk about them more than that.

A lot of these are specific classes that you need at least one of- A faith based class, a black knight, a ranger, or a rogue class, but still more are capable of the same stuff. Stacking evade or un-stacking enemy hit or some combination leaves the MG unable to attack, since if they're running this typical grind setup the only method they have to attack is basic attacks, and rely on hit. Shaitans have a big immunity to most hit debuffs, which leaves them strong for this, and Corbies are immune to one of the big ones, blind. This, IMO, is one of the bigger things that sets them up to be so strong with MG, since you can stack enough damage without their passives between Ryart, RoT+, and other things. Shaitans are currently, as far as I know, capable of being almost completely immune to these hit debuffs now, with the addition of the Kaminah robes. I don't use them myself at the moment since blind is something I still don't see as much, but that's another thing that leaves them in such a strong position. Corbies, in comparison, have less immunities but wind up still being strong because of their SAN bonuses to hit. I don't think it outweighs the value of Immunity to Fear, among other things, though- Corbies are a bit more easily dealt with because of it. Shaitans do still have another weakness, though- Corbies suffer from it too, but I think it's more glaring with Shaitans, because they can't invest in Sanctity to get Status Resist. Immobilize. From Blacksand, Thornshooter or a number of skills can make a gunner unable to close the distance to get in short range, where a handgun user needs to be to deal real damage. From there, magic users just roflstomp the MG, along with archer classes of any nature, and some other classes.

Ghost also is capable of taking on MG, though it roughly boils down to just, surviving initial damage and then dealing as much damage as possible in response, like rocket tag. This isn't reliable, but worthy of mention, especially since I have run into a ghost/hexer that has decent evade up against me and manages a tight match.

I don't have too much more to add, really... I think the multishot damage stacking should be nerfed, but I think that with any of these options, multishot guns will fall into wide unpopularity again. Without their current damage capability, they'll fall behind the ranged utility of longer guns like the Moonlight Mercy, Seed Sniper, or Excel Sniper, and below the damage output, easy KD, and otherwise better function of shotguns. I think that something along the lines of option C is the best route presented that the QD and other multishot guns have to exist without being entirely unusable.

Thanks so much for posting this thread and discussing it! I discovered some of these things on my own and have been playing with them, since I enjoy the concept of multishot guns, and I hope they can be in a place in the meta where people don't hate me for using them, but also where it's possible to win a serious match using them.

**Neus** · 09-17-2019, 01:25 PM

For now, I'll change Prayer of Ryart and Aerial Attacker into SWA modifiers instead of Power.

FaeLenx · 09-17-2019, 04:25 PM

I like the subtler, smaller changes happening.

iStabOreos · 10-06-2019, 05:14 PM

Senna post_id=37656 time=1568573281 user_id=2036 Wrote:Okay so, I'm more amazed all the points I was going to make was already mentioned. There isn't much else I can say other than...

OPTION A and OPTION B is where its at.

YEAH IT SUCKS DOESN'T IT!? Doesn't mean we can't reiterate it while adding our own spin on things to it like I am about to do now, the following you're about to see contains scenes of graphic and horrifying depictions of violence, please if you're scared don't click the spoiler, you've been warned.

THIS WAS FUCKING ROUND 0 FOLKS, to spare you the math, I went ahead and did ALL OF IT (this is with 2 quickdraws adding on the damage, I haven't mentioned it, but a Quickdraw itself adds 12+ initiative so that's +24 Cel worth, my god.(Not to mention Damage stacking wise, it's with the +6 Shaitan passive, plus Ryart now giving SWA, and the Ring of Thorns+ the Shaitan stuff ALONE should not be used on guns period, but that's my opinion.))
We'll take the max HP of the three victims who'll be remaining under anonymous as per request:

Kitsune's max HP: 784
Detective's max HP: 754
Merc's Max HP: 949
------------------
Kitsune's Damage taken: 698
Detective's Damage Taken (KO'd): 761
Merc's Damage Taken: 566
------------------

Keep in mind the one who took the LEAST amount of damage had 50 + scaled defense. I don't know about you guys, but this is not okay, it really isn't and I DARE anyone to argue with me whether or not this is okay, and back it up because I have the receipts as you've seen.

Senna · 10-06-2019, 05:44 PM

Okay I'mma be real, I was kinda going to let this slide but I watched that fight and he was more than able to 1v3 them without assistance (One dude didn't even get a chance to DO anything). They flat out zero round the entire team and that by itself is waaaay to broken and unbalanced. Some things I just shrug and let it pass but this one, I can't overlook. Since he's much faster too thanks to the Quick Draw stack, unless you're running Kensei with really high weapon durability. They can pretty much end the battle before someone even gets the chance to DO anything and if they survive? They need to figure out by god's will, how to even burst him down in the one turn they have remaining. That's WORST than bloodspike spam, SOME adjustment needs to be made to this, so it isn't just 'I outspeed, I attack, I win'.

What I'm afraid of is the try hards copying this man's build, making pvp, fun little player events and so on completely unbearable. SOME adjustment is needed.

Autumn · 10-06-2019, 06:20 PM

Lets make it less personal and just address what needs to be changed instead:

-Shaitan's Dark Claws still applies 6 damage per shot
-Ring of Thorns Plus still applies 10 damage per shot
-(Trait) Battle rush still applies 5 damage per shot
-(Talent/Bravery) Heat of Battle still applies 3 damage per shot.

These effects stacking onto a quickdraw is devastating, and probably needs to be adjusted similarly to Corbie's Aerial Fighter and Ryart previously.

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