[PantherPrincess]

These are all very good points. In my personal opinion, I think it lies in how easy it is to play a tank and mitigate damage. Sustain plays a very large role in battle and that's a shoe in for tanky builds so I think adding more ways to chip away at defenses is the route to go. Whether it's more enchants for weapons or adding certain effects to skills but one thing for sure it needs to benefit dodge builds somewhat because it is incredibly underwhelming in most/certain scenarios to use evasive builds vs tanks right now and I'm sure we can all agree to that at least.

[Akame]

Evade builds are forced to go through hit-check/crit-check to do damage and then must win an evade-check in order to mitigate damage. They also must invest in LUC and GUI in order to pull this off -- tanky builds can use fewer skills and output better results. For instance, doing more damage, taking less damage and having more sustain with more HP/FP.

Over time, the best evade setups have slowly been chipped on; from the changes with the Tarnada and Kensei to the nerf of Voltiger, I think it's fair to say we've seen a large decrease in people playing with Evasive builds due to how hard it is to get similar results to what a tank can. (Save for Ghost, obviously) All while tank/auto-hit builds have been slowly getting more utility and more support.

Tanks are just far easier to play. With the addition of the Snake-Faced Helmet, flat deductions from armor have started to make new headway as well. I've seen my 130 SWA weapon with near 50% crit damage being reduced to 30 damage on a crit from how effective it is.

I don't think there's any easy solution for this, but for now, I'm going to bandwagon on top of Fern's suggestion by making the Burn status effect disable armor. Will it finally balance Evasive Builds vs Tanks? No, but it's something, and I'm definitely open to more suggestions from other people.

[Senna]

While we're on the right track for the tank adjustments, evasive struggle still haven't been looked on all that much aside from the suggestions I've made.

You know, after a bit of thinking. While I do believe the 'Super evasion' suggestion could help, that might be too much of a major change to the game-play and WILL cause a lot of bugs to even implement. Spo's comment on the Cel change, while that seems good on paper, it'll probably throw the SWA stacking even further into the rabbit hole just to how the Strength stats did.

With the mentioning of Snake Helm, it dawn on me that we could always just suggest something a little more different for evasive builds. Similar to the Ogata's Waraji, whereas it's only effective if the user has more CEL than Def stacks, why not have more items and enchantments like that? Unarmored torso, gloves, shoes and so with an effect that helps in that case or via evasion trigger or just having more Cel than reduction stats.

Even stuff like a torso enchantment that does something similar to the super evasion suggestion; damage insurance that operates like intervention but it uses Cel instead and so on. (Since new dungeons were mentioned)

Just wild ideas.

This could also affect some Classes Innate/Passives via applying small bonus effect if those conditions are met like weather body, agile protection, Bullet barrier and acrobatic shooting for example. Affecting stuff like Vent, Golden Aura, one on one and many more. (These I can list off the top of my head), allowing more synergies with Evasive builds.

[WaifuApple]

The struggle of evasion really comes down to the fact that damage across the board from good builds is super high, in my opinion. That makes it so that squishy builds get slaughtered. The solution, however, is not to make squishy builds not squishy - I don't believe they should have too many more opportunities defensively, because that's not what they're meant to be. They're meant to be hard hitting, but fragile people.

The problem is how hard it is to get a lot of builds to hit hard without sacrificing your speed and evasion. Basic builds outside of duelist... need love. They need more damage output, really. Archers don't really get spectacular damage more often than not (unless you factor in buster cannon, and then ow), dagger users are at a disadvantage compared to duelists, and guns... well, they're something, alright. I believe evasion itself is fine as it is functionally - but the damage of evasive builds outside of the meta really needs to go up to make them feel like the heavy hitting squishies, rather than the squishies that just die.

[HexGirlBestGirl]

Alright. Before I remotely say anything else in any capacity of actual detailing beyond the initial thoughts. I wanna ask the real big questions. Give as much as you want for an answer, if you really wanna answer in the first place. Just food for thought, really.

First! What does it mean to be an 'evasive build' in general? Since I get too many answers on what this is supposed to be but it seems to boil down to "I can dodge basics kinda somewhat sorta, get slaughtered by autohits even though I should be mitigating them and I can kite a ton!"

Two! Why would I want to be this 'evasive build' over a tanky build in general at this current state and time?

Since to simplify my thoughts on an immensely surface level. I honestly can't tell who's an evasive build or not most of the times outside of them moving faster than the common player and taking more damage than the common player or I hit the legendary 80% Accuracy and that's assuming i'm debuffed usually on almost any build designed to. Y'know. Have hit chance.

So I wanna know what people think is an evasive build and what makes them different than the opposing side of tanks. Is it someone who can dodge? Someone who can kite? Someone who has glass cannon syndrome? I wanna know. Since that's the first glorious step to fleshing this all out.

Yet all I can gather from this thread so far is that:

dodging has lots of counterplay while having no tankiness but giving tankiness to these doj types will help fix that or some shit?

the issue is that doj types are supposed to be glass cannony or something?

investment of doj or whatever isn't worth it enough?

Tanks are easier to play?

Well, I shall ask the simple questions.

Do you want those dodge types to have more survivability? Do you want tank types to have less survivability or whatever? If autohits exist, and the only reason they exist is to go and get around the dodge types, yet dodge types have evasion which is usually meaningless since they have no innate defenses most of the time in a realistic standard...

Damage being too high on either side seems less the issue and more the fact that in this game where X beats Y that beats Z that beats X that gets dual beat by A isn't exactly too friendly to things having access to more than one tool as is to handle another situation. Tanks get defense and damage and ways to head around evasive types. Even if Evasion was stronger, even if players had more evade, everything having some form of mobility or autohit seems like it'll just fuck over them anyway.

Tanks aren't the traditional holy trinity meme kind of tank. Nonono. Tanky boy is just "DPS but I don't die super easy" a mass majority of the time. Boosting Evasion Damage Reduction makes dodges just tanks that use a different stat scaling for their tankiness. Which just makes them Alter Tanks.

Boosting Evade Gains doesn't eliminate the main problem of almost everything having options to just go around them or heavily chase after them or punish them for minimal investment, on a universal level as for these are innate class happenings.

Just take a look at everything over all. Any buffs/changes are going to be on a universal level depending on what happens. More enchants means more enchants for all, not just dodge builds. If something for example benefits a dodge build, that's a buff to them. But if it also buffs the opposing side of the war, the Tankybois, then what happens? Either the buff becomes more minor or tanks get buffed more to the point of where the dodge buff may as well become a dodge nerf.

If it's not something of this capacity, then it'll gain the Miragewalk syndrome where it's pretty much likely to be mandatory if you really want to build the fabled 'evasive build' of the sorts. Which sounds more limiting than not, and if you say 'but it can make up for having to run class X or Y right now!' when it's claimed to be in a bad spot, then wouldn't that just put you back in the same position which is already bad if you don't mandatorily run one of those fabled 'evasive' helping classes?


I really can't give much more that isn't just other people's words rehashed or whatever until I know for sure what's being gunned for.

So yes. To tl;dr

Outline what should define an 'evasive build' and their overall goal/job.
Outline the main reason you should be going this over tankiness hours.
Outline just exactly what evasive builds need at this current moment.
Consider how any of these needs will impact non-evasive builds.
Consider again what the difference will be between evasive builds and tanky builds.
Consider how many options everything has as a class whole more than anything that can affect both sides of the spectrum.
Consider what makes each side 'unique' once more.
Then consider how one will fix this without making it too imbalanced or heavily invalidating one side or the other.

That's about it. I shall put my thoughts out in a more concise and proper manner when I unironically get the answers I seek. Bwahahahahahaha.

[Senna]

As for Appo's comment; that's the thing. They're suppose to be hard hitters however when the spread in stats and the influx in SWA stacking for Autohit, you'll find it that tanks, for some reason, hits just as hard with far too great Survivability. I'm positive if people could, or haven't already, they'd add points into their defense stats but it's not as easy. They still need to maintain a certain amount of evade (and evasion) to survive else they'll simple fall victim to bloodborne (Or borneblood) and other ability that increase hit and so on. It WAS part of the reason why I suggested the CEL adjustment so they can add those points in but that will only add more wood to the SWA stacking situation at the moment.

If not, throw them off balance.

Yes, damage at the moment is quite high. Lacking defense stats, unless they can outkit another, their fate is sealed. Also, yes, not all evasive builds are DPS. You do have many other evasion builds that depend on the turn order to support their comrades as fast as possible.

And no, it isn't about basic attacking duelist. It's about all evasive build all together, Basic attack, Support and auto-hit evasion builds.

As for Detty's comment.

It all comes down to survivability. Of course I'm not saying they should be on tank's level but enough survivability to grant them some gameplay time against the SWA stacking, high damage meta would help quite a lot. Noone would like to know they have to run from a doomwall that can merely chase them down just as easy and rip them in two. (Which you should well know.)

As for the questions -

Outline what should define an 'evasive build' and their overall goal/job - Evasive build are normally characters that depend more on their Initiative, ability to negate damage via evading as much as possible and (Or) their mobility. Their goal differs from character to character. That all depends on what the user wants.

Outline the main reason you should be going this over tankiness hours - This, in the state of the game, no reason at all. Tankiness hours can do just the same as evasion builds. Perhaps to get turn order and RNG against basic attacks but that's about it.

Outline just exactly what evasive builds need at this current moment. - Survivability and synergy mainly, allowing them to actually play the game without needing to use certain classes or run around like a headless chicken. To give people a reason to choose between the two.

Consider how any of these needs will impact non-evasive builds - This is what we're trying to take care of right now. How to make a suggestion that can't easily be picked up by non-evasive builds.

Consider again what the difference will be between evasive builds and tanky builds - One is soaking damage, the other is evading/negates as much damage.

Consider how many options everything has as a class whole more than anything that can affect both sides of the spectrum. - For some reason, this question confuses me. Are you talking about how many options in total? One class? How many classes? Or just on a global scale?

Consider what makes each side 'unique' once more. - There is one option but that will affect everyone. Both sides are 'unique' as it is, one is merely overbearing and outshining. Its like Leo to Hops from Pokemon Sword & Shield.

Then consider how one will fix this without making it too imbalanced or heavily invalidating one side or the other - We're still trying to figure this one out.

[Sarinpa1]

There's not much new to add to the conversation, many points have been made already, so I'll simply list what I think is to be the cause, and potential solution by picking from the thread more or less. Feel free to skip to the bolded part if you're keeping up with the thread.

Balance has been shifting away from hit requirements to more and more autohit love. Evidenced by how many classes that were formerly the physicals got magic autohits, new classes being practicaly mostly about the autohits, etcetera.


Rather than to look at biggest offenders, the anomalies in terms of big damage numbers, or excessive utility and tone them down to be in line with others, we're currently just ignoring that stuff, and seemingly rather buffing up the other end of spectrum, the rather underwhelming ones. Which of course results in higher and higher numbers getting produced. (WG is still practicaly untouched. Custom spells are incredibly overtuned, etc. Disclaimer, it's a prevailent trend but not a rule!!!)

Armor rework stripped away the option for people to be evasive and have decent defensive stats, since ones end-result of DR is moreso reliant on armor itself and skill-related DR. You're practicaly forced to exploit the classes that give you those. (Ghosts wraithguard, Monks BoI, rogues evasion buff) if you wish to have some degree of survivability as a dodgie.


How to fix? Well, even under the assumption that I'm on-point with the specific reasons picked out from the thread and they are purely to blame, just rolling back is not an option anymore. It'd not be an elegant solution at all.

Main difference between a dodgie and a tank is how many mistakes you can afford to make. Both can build ridiculous damage, so let's remove it from the equation and focus purely on their defensive play.
Dodgies are meant to be high risk, high reward, while the tanks are the sure results.
High risk, high reward can translate to "If shit goes my way, I take much less damage than a tank would. If shit does NOT go my way, I'm getting wrecked." That is how it has been, non?

And with RNG being effectively purged from the game little by little, doesn't evasion become just plain ol' DR with a slight bit of chance based shenanigans involved? And options to absolutely delete it.
fucks sake get to the point already

This is why I suggest that the current way evade works is abandoned. Or enhanced. Hit vs Evade with the people that still basic attack seems to ...work fine as far as I can tell? But the main issue comes with autohits. To make a change that would negate the word autohit (ie giving the option for them to completely miss) is a drastic and not elegant change.

But, what about some form of a trait that'll show your dedication to dodging? High risk, high reward. Something like a chance based enhanced evasion, autohits merely grazing you, giving you some massive DR. HOWEVER. With some form of a downside. Does your SWA get a percentage reduce? Does your normal dr plumett? Do you get limited stacks per battle?

tl;dr Evade needs to start feeling like something else than just DR again.

[Syeburn]

It really comes down to the direction dev wants to take evasion. If he wants the game to drive more towards a deterministic system where all players know the consequences of their movements will be set in stone and luck has no factor - evasion needs to get kicked to the curb all together and some other way of giving agile characters a way to tank needs to be thought up.

If evasion in its current concept of a chance based damage NEGATION in contrast to defenses always active damage reduction is to survive in 2020 ; it needs some new ways of interacting with the autohit swagouge menace that isn't shaving off a fraction of an incoming train of damage.

[Lolzytripd]

It really comes down to the direction dev wants to take evasion. If he wants the game to drive more towards a deterministic system where all players know the consequences of their movements will be set in stone and luck has no factor - evasion needs to get kicked to the curb all together and some other way of giving agile characters a way to tank needs to be thought up.

If evasion in its current concept of a chance based damage NEGATION in contrast to defenses always active damage reduction is to survive in 2020 ; it needs some new ways of interacting with the autohit swagouge menace that isn't shaving off a fraction of an incoming train of damage.

I'd start by making all projectile based autohits dodgeable.

[Autumn]

It really comes down to the direction dev wants to take evasion. If he wants the game to drive more towards a deterministic system where all players know the consequences of their movements will be set in stone and luck has no factor - evasion needs to get kicked to the curb all together and some other way of giving agile characters a way to tank needs to be thought up.

If evasion in its current concept of a chance based damage NEGATION in contrast to defenses always active damage reduction is to survive in 2020 ; it needs some new ways of interacting with the autohit swagouge menace that isn't shaving off a fraction of an incoming train of damage.

I'd start by making all projectile based autohits dodgeable.

I can tell you ahead of time glancing blows showed that was a very clear issue.