[Autumn]

Citing mental illness as a motivational antagonistic trait is a little tasteless.

[Sawrock]

I don't normally like being long-winded, but I'll do my best to respond to everyone, because I do agree with Polk's messages.

Mewmi:
Polk doesn't create shallow characters. Some of my favorite examples are his necromancer who disputed how Duyuei treats their dead, and in a spur of the moment, he's had an Omina regale about the cruelties of life against a more well-off redtail, playing off the good luck and bad luck of their lives and situations. I can testify that he puts more time into his characters than I do.

Dezark:
Thank you for the compliment. In Polk's post, I will say a lot of his beliefs echo my own: consent is important, don't plan too much to be restricted, etcetera.

Tana & Moku203:
It's a joke along the lines of how people would shitpost about "lesbian catgirls". While I've never favored such jokes myself, I can ascertain Polk is not homophobic.

Imotepchief:
At no point does Polk promote non-consenual ganking. In fact, whenver Polk and myself go ganking together, we do exactly as he posts- if the person doesn't want to get ganked, we simply offer to omit the entire scenario. As Polk himself outlines in his post, consent is important and roleplay is cooperative; attacking someone when they do not want to be attacked is just going to escalate things OOCly. Under part four, with "When communication doesn’t work". We even offer to let people to brainstorm with us for how they get away if we win the fight.

FaeLenx:
While Polk does weigh which of his defined types can be more or less rewarding, and more or less prone to failure, he does specify that there's no right or wrong way to write a character. I can't weigh in on him referencing his own characters, though- I'm far too narcissistic, and his reference to my own character, Gowwel, vomiting centipedes was a small delight for me to read.

Kazzy:
Polk has experience being a villain. Almost all of my Kcorvara villains have fought besides one of Polk's. He isn't making this thread to say "look at me", he's making this thread because he's had experience and it's worthwhile to share with the community.

Autumn:
I agree, but some of my own thoughts on the matter: A character being mentally instable isn't completely taboo. Bloeden wasn't sane. Beryl wasn't sane. Hell, a whole thing of Shaitans is their madness. There have been many characters in popular fiction that have been mentally ill. As I believe some have pointed out in the past, researching medical conditions and mental illnesses is the bottom rung of basework for knowing what you're even writing about- better that than writing of them without any research. Of course, it's not okay to say "my character has bipolar, that made them evil", and certainly not a topic to be taken lightly no matter the circumstances.

To anyone who read their individualized responses, thank you.

To Polk himself, I agree with many points in your post. My criticisms are that the topic of mental illnesses should definitely be handled more carefully- "mixing them in a cocktail" is dangerous phrasing. I know how you roleplay, and I've never seen overt disrespectful use of any mental illnesses, but including such in a guide is dangerous, especially when new or young players might look to this and overstep boundaries that are known by more experienced roleplayers. I will agree with others, as well, that the lesbian joke was out of place. Finally, you posted the section of "A foil, in writing, is essentially a character that exists in stark opposition in order to accentuate the hero’s traits" twice.

I will state a lot of what you wrote echoes my own beliefs- I especially enjoyed the part on how characters should be more valued for having brought a story, than used as a golden pedestal to never overturn. As I say myself, better to die from execution than to die from stagnation. You champion respect for consent and including smaller tips into the overall post with links to the applicable rules, character repurposing being allowed, etc., adds value overall to the post for those who would use this as what it was intended for- a guide.

[Mewni]

All of that is extremely hard to believe. It may be the impression you have when you did work with him, but it is definitely not the reality of many that had to deal with the constant stream of recycled characters live.

A lot of the thread in itself is contradictory and everyone I saw talking about it did nothing but roll their eyes, communication is the thing they most lack of, and sometimes willingly withhold information or lie about a intention oocly. Believe me it wasn't more than once they used other characters welcome in a certain place to scout easy targets to come in with their antag and gank on, had to deal with it already by my own experience.

Also its hits especially different when you say with a straightface "Cooperate with your fellow players" then "Don't compromise" in the same "guide".

When people goes "Immediately another antag is made after one of theirs got killed uuugh" instead of "LETS GOOOOO!" there is a issue here.

And I deeply doubt they are a master writer to do anything but shallow stories with how rapidfire those are.

[Poruku]

I've written a guide about how I play antagonists, literally because someone wanted to know. And I got so into it, so passionate, that I poured out everything I had to say. I thought some people would find it useful, and that if at least one person got something good out of it, it would have been worthwhile. The fact so many of you are calling it self-centered or whatever is honestly heartbreaking considering this is an expression of my love for this game and what I've learned, that I wanted to share because I have such a strong connection to this game and I've enjoyed doing this so much.

I'll respond to your points, however.

Bryce_Hego

There's almost nothing about SL2 ganks that contribute to really anything good

I think most of your points stem from this, and honestly that's fine. I understand that not everyone will respond well to ganking. I try to be understanding and make sure it's fun for the other side as well, but in the end this might happen. Being an antagonist means knowing your audience, and that's why you need to be cautious when interacting with others to try gleaning whether they are enjoying it or forcing themselves. Still, there's a fun and spontaneous element to ganking that I enjoy, and I know many others do, as well. I don't plan on stopping ganking entirely, but I'll take your post into consideration.

As a note, no, we don't gank people with optimized comps. I like to just play whatever build I feel like making.

Mewni

The best guide one can have on antagonism is to not follow this thread, at all.

Unless you want to dish out a lot of shallow characters

I literally have no idea how you got that from my post. I explain at length how to make a character with a lot of depth. Please share your concerns with me directly next time, because this is very hurtful.


Dezark

I gotta say, if anyone is gonna give the guide to antags and such; i'd say it Sawrock.

Pretty sure he even got a old guide on the forums somewhere for it.

I have utmost respect for Sawrock, he's a legend and I learned a lot from him. The only reason I didn't mention him is because I didn't want to speak for him. He has his own guide, but I regret not adding a mention of him since he's been a big influence. I will probably do that at some point.


I don't know how that detracts from my post or is really related. Sawrock has his own style, I have mine. Both guides can exist. Both styles are valid.

Moku, Tana and Imotep

how does being a lesbian foster conflict?

This was a joke. It's referring to the prevalence of them, as well as Geladyne medical. We often joke about "disaster lesbians", I didn't come up with that. I don't get how this could be construed as not a joke honestly. I just put it in there without thinking because it just seemed so perfectly out of place in that list while poking fun at characters I love like Iosefka. To be clear, I have nothing against lesbians.


Imotep

The kind of antagonism you're advertising here is very much like a scooby doo monster of the week type of villain.

A proper antagonist character falls into one of three catagories, in my opinion.

I appreciate that you're bringing your own vision to the table, but I do think I have touched on this in my post. There are multiple types of villains, both in execution and in terms of the actual character writing. And all of them can be valid as long as they're enjoyable.

FaeLenx

There's a lot of bad things to glean from this. It seems to condemn or otherwise deter specific sorts of storytelling as 'lesser' or 'worse.'

This was never my intention, and I'm really sorry if it came off that way. I think the part of the post where I state that this is just my opinion and my way to play and every way is valid was a bit too short, or it should have been more prevalent with disclaimers at the start and throughout.

It presents a layer of off color humor that really detracts from any point it's trying to make.

It presents a layer of off color humor that really detracts from any point it's trying to make.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I guess that kind of humor isn't for everyone. I enjoyed adding my own touch of edgy humor to this post because it is so personal to me. I had a lot of fun writing this guide and so I didn't hold back. In hindsight, I should have been more careful, but I didn't expect this level of aversion to it. I'll be careful in the future.


FaeLenx

It's slightly masturbatory with references to one's own characters that most people won't have met

I used my characters in the meme because it was a meme I made for fun. The actual pictures of the characters are just there as a wink to people who know them. Honestly, I'm wounded that you see this as masturbatory. I've poured my soul and my experiences into this post because I wanted to share my journey, my love for this game and antagging, my techniques and my stories. It is a very personal post, so that's probably why it comes off as self-centered. I learned from playing my characters, and that improved my enjoyment of the game. That's why I wanted to share personal things. I admit I could and perhaps should have been more humble, but it's simply the nature of the post. I'm sorry that you didn't like it.


Kazzy

This is the most sanctimonious, look at me thread I've seen in a while.

What an unnecessary ego trip.

I don't know what to say. This is just extremely hurtful. See above.


Autumn

Citing mental illness as a motivational antagonistic trait is a little tasteless.

I apologize for that. To me, mental illness is a very serious subject and I admit upon re-reading that it was not addressed properly. I still want to keep it there because it is a part of many of my characters. I think respectful roleplay about mental illness can be very good because it allows us to learn and understand better. 


The truth is, mental illness can and is used as an antagonistic trait by many people. We call it insanity, papillion shenanigans, shaitan madness... I like to use the right word for it, it's that simple. Like sawrock said, many villains aren't sane. I think it's something that should be talked about. I've edited my post to be more respectful, I apologize for the original, especially the wording.



All in all, I'm just very saddened by the response I've gotten. It's fine if you don't like the post, it's fine if you don't like my way to antag. I know that it won't please everyone, because antagonism is never going to be perfect. Everyone has their own way to enjoy SL2, and I'm only a small part of its community. The fact my humor got a very negative response is a shame, but that much I understand. But... I didn't expect this, honestly. I'm disheartened.

Many thanks to your response, Saw. I couldn't have made it this far without you. I've made changes to my post to reflect your very accurate criticism, which I agree with.

---

All of that is extremely hard to believe. It may be the impression you have when you did work with him, but it is definitely not the reality of many that had to deal with the constant stream of recycled characters live.

A lot of the thread in itself is contradictory and everyone I saw talking about it did nothing but roll their eyes, communication is the thing they most lack of, and sometimes willingly withhold information or lie about a intention oocly. Believe me it wasn't more than once they used other characters welcome in a certain place to scout easy targets to come in with their antag and gank on, had to deal with it already by my own experience.

Also its hits especially different when you say with a straightface "Cooperate with your fellow players" then "Don't compromise" in the same "guide".

What???

I don't recall scouting with an alt.

"Don't compromise" refers to IC. OOC should always be about reaching understanding. 

Also I don't understand where this is coming from. Nobody has been telling me about these issues, and you're making it sound like I'm a well known reoccurring problem. I'd love it if I could get feedback because I want to improve. But I don't understand. You're telling me there's a large amount of people who actively dislike how I play, and this is how I learn about it?

[Cheshyre]

Okay so this entire thing is proving to me that this place is as advertised: a clique based hell where people scream and cry and cause the game to bleed players. Almost all of this is very good advice, especially if you take it with Sawrocks guide to antagonism, but Mewni and his gang has chosen to run in and scream at this poor guy. Saying this is definitely painting a target on my back, but I've only touched the game for a few hours.

Autumn has a history of mocking people for having mental illnesses, while also doing the exact thing he's calling tasteless. Imotep is a god damn neckbeard with a superiority complex that thinks his words are more important than any other matters. And when you tell him you're busy or have other priorities, he'll try to humiliate you, fail, and get pissy at you while taking petty pot-shots. You guys are also "conveniently" forgetting that aggressive lesbians are REALLY common, fuck Tana plays a lot of them. Not to mention ignoring the fact it's clearly a joke.

Sawrock is the ONLY person here who I firmly believe isn't some asshole, save for Poruku. Go outside. Get a life. Touch grass and stop bullying and harassing someone over the internet because you want to cause drama on a dying game on a dying platform. This doesn't make the games situation better.

[Poruku]

Let's please keep discussion civil. I would prefer that the thread not devolve into this sort of thing.

[Dezark]

Okay so this entire thing is proving to me that this place is as advertised: a clique based hell where people scream and cry and cause the game to bleed players. Almost all of this is very good advice, especially if you take it with Sawrocks guide to antagonism, but Mewni and his gang has chosen to run in and scream at this poor guy. Saying this is definitely painting a target on my back, but I've only touched the game for a few hours.

Autumn has a history of mocking people for having mental illnesses, while also doing the exact thing he's calling tasteless. Imotep is a god damn neckbeard with a superiority complex that thinks his words are more important than any other matters. And when you tell him you're busy or have other priorities, he'll try to humiliate you, fail, and get pissy at you while taking petty pot-shots. You guys are also "conveniently" forgetting that aggressive lesbians are REALLY common, fuck Tana plays a lot of them. Not to mention ignoring the fact it's clearly a joke.

Sawrock is the ONLY person here who I firmly believe isn't some asshole, save for Poruku. Go outside. Get a life. Touch grass and stop bullying and harassing someone over the internet because you want to cause drama on a dying game on a dying platform. This doesn't make the games situation better.

See it one thing to have someone back, it another to go and say stuff like this.. personally I'd say to take your own advice at the end there, but given the account brand new by the looks of it; I'mma take a guess and say it either a returning player with issue firing off on a brand new account, or a alt one made to give insults. Either way, no need to go insulting people.



Till than I salute the hellfire that gonna break out at some point, and give thanks to the GMs who deem the thread needing to be locked to cut such from worsening.

[Imotepchief]

I really don't know where that hatred has come from, I don't think I've ever complained about people being busy or tried to humiliate anyone. Though if that is the case and I'm simply forgetting it, I'm always open to being corrected, alongside any actually legitimate and productive critisism.

I'm also fairly sure that at least a few of the complaints of the 'lesbian' mention were in similar humor, mine was at least such, a tease at the worst.

[Mewni]

I really don't know where that hatred has come from, I don't think I've ever complained about people being busy or tried to humiliate anyone. Though if that is the case and I'm simply forgetting it, I'm always open to being corrected, alongside any actually legitimate and productive critisism.

I'm also fairly sure that at least a few of the complaints of the 'lesbian' mention were in similar humor, mine was at least such, a tease at the worst.

It came from nowhere, it is a freshly made account with clear intentions of what it wants to do, so I wouldn't worry about that.
Which is very hilarious when all it does is give even more standing power to those they attempt to attack, but you know, let them believe otherwise.

Of course, if saying they just touched the game but know everyone else "so well" wasn't enough to scream that at your face, but I'm just assuring you that the few times I interacted with you wasn't any of that, and was all but pleasant.

[Balthie]

If you can't exist on the forums without going on an insulting tirade at your fellow players, you don't deserve to use them.
I can't say I'm fond of having to be so harsh here, but there's no place for derailing other people's threads with this nonsense, Cheshyre.

Please keep any discussion here civil and constructive.