Time to tip the scales! Tactician 'I win' buttons (Splash + Analyze Weakness/Enemy Evaluation)

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Time to tip the scales! Tactician 'I win' buttons (Splash + Analyze Weakness/Enemy Evaluation)

Post by K Peculier » Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:32 pm

Okay, I think we all know what I'll be talking about.

TACTICIAN

With the new addition of the new tactician spells, a certain combo is so oppressively strong that there is only one very specific way to counter it.

Before the addition of the new tactician spells, tacticians were still incredible useful but mostly in group fights and in a party rather than being a literal god among mortals even in 1 versus 4 situations if played against inferior builds.

The biggest and most disgusting is of course the building up of tactics ranks using the power of three eyey bois using max rank charge order. The absolute worse problem is that they add onto tactics ranks and can be summoned with relative ease as the eyes dying does not reduce tactics rank at all.

Even at Rank B tactics rank, a tactician who has smacked a dark eye boomy boy on you can now analyze weakness and enemy evaluation you and the duration and levels of those two abilities basically mark you for death unless you are a void assassin that can directly counter those two abilities.

With **PERCENTAGE** damage amplification and reduction combined with decent stats, the tactician at that point has already won. Keikaku dori as the kids say. With the usage of two other spells, the final exodia of the Tactician - Splash and Pinpoint Electro, there is no escape from the wrath of the heavens.

You will take a ludicrous amount of damage amplified and there is nowhere to run, and may god help you if more than one of your teammates are hit with a eye boy which allows pinpoint to hit even more people in a global map range.

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Here are my two very simple proposals to fix this problem that will still have tacticians be immensely powerful but not without effort.

The death of dark eyes INCLUDING dark detonation must reduce the tactics rank of the tactician by one.

And splash CANNOT be 1 momentum for how amazing the effects it debuffs on the enemy. It has to be made 3 momentum. And there will no doubt be many naysayers that will haggle for 2 momentum and to them I say NAY! It shall be 3 momentum so that using splash is a TACTICAL decision rather than a free 'I win' button.

To tacticians reading this, I ask thee of this.

Do you play the class to roleplay a proper strategist? One who plans and outsmarts their opponents using their superior wit. Do you not think that with these meager handicaps on your superior brain, this will prove that you are a master tactician worthy of defeating your foes?

Or do you really need dark eyes with crazy amounts of damage amplification and a global spell without any effort to beat people?

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Re: Time to tip the scales! Tactician 'I win' buttons (Splash + Analyze Weakness/Enemy Evaluation)

Post by WaifuApple » Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:41 pm

I agree with all of this. I would go further, however, and do some additional nerfing to Enemy Eval and Analyse Weakness, to make them less overbearing on others regardless.
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Re: Time to tip the scales! Tactician 'I win' buttons (Splash + Analyze Weakness/Enemy Evaluation)

Post by Sarah54321 » Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:43 pm

I don't think we should nerf Eval and Analyze if we manage to nerf Dark eyes and make the Tactics Rank harder to get. After all, if they manage to get it high enough to count towards a battle, I think it's worth it. But that's my idea on it. Otherwise, the OP has many good points.
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Re: Time to tip the scales! Tactician 'I win' buttons (Splash + Analyze Weakness/Enemy Evaluation)

Post by FiresTFS » Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:45 pm

Yeah, the real problem here is Dark Eyes' Effect and Splash's Momentum Cost. If both were to be nerfed, I think Tactician would hit the balance point again.
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Re: Time to tip the scales! Tactician 'I win' buttons (Splash + Analyze Weakness/Enemy Evaluation)

Post by renowner » Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:51 pm

While I agree it's a bit over the top, I don't think making dark eyes lower your tactics rank makes any sense. That goes entirely against the point of the class. You have to main tactican for good analyzes, so they can also be considered main class only. The eyes are slow and can't act the turn they're summoned so I personally don't think the guard order thing is that huge a deal. But dark eyes shouldn't magnify the level of analyze. But analyze should also be usable when no enemies are in range. This would make the move tactical again. A way to extend the range and effect of your analysis skills.
That being said, I'd also lower it to two summons, as three for 3m is extremely powerful. Both for certain enchantments, blocking attacks, and stacking tactics ranks. While we're at it I think field medic could also be buffed a little, as could a few of the never use formations like casting formation.
As for splash!

My thoughts are, it's really strong. But that's okay since spelltheives have a 3 turn CD on it. It's basically a grenade launch for tactician. However what's not okay, is splash easily immobilizing with any ice damage inflicted. That's too strong for a 1m move. Pretty sure it even ignores status resist, not that it matters. Make it frostbite. And make the tactician ice move make ice tiles on and around formations. The current one is pretty fucking useless. Looks amazing on paper but it can never hit anything.



Just my two cents though. On phone so sorry for poor formatting.

As a final note: I believe, though I could be wrong, Dev intends to make all the classes even stronger. Balance by buffs, rather than nerfs. Looking to the new stuff Duelist, already one of the best base classes received. (That's my basis for this logic, anyway.)
So I believe that although what I listed is good balance, without neutering the class completely. Perhaps they should be left as is, for a benchmark to how far classes can be pushed.
Last edited by renowner on Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Time to tip the scales! Tactician 'I win' buttons (Splash + Analyze Weakness/Enemy Evaluation)

Post by Senna » Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:54 pm

Eh, Since it's asking for tacticians, I'll post. Eh, I don't really use dark eye so I wouldn't know. I don't have EE and I barely use AW, lol (Yes, I don't copy and paste other builds, I try to be unique). It sounds more like AW, Dark eye and EE needs adjustment. And yes, I do use outplay potential with Splash, my earth trap, volley formation, my Excel sniper (charged) and chain shot AKA kite like a mothafucka while use splash to get muddy off (Yes, it's a crit dodgy build). Suppose this is only possible for me since splash has 1-2 momentum before a duelist, mage, Ranger or a V/A rip me apart the next turn. ASIDE FROM ALL OF THAT! I know Dark eye with Charge command is aids and I also know if they build tank, it hits like a truck as well as the splash/Pinpoint. I've only seen it in action like once or twice so I kinda can't tell if this suggestion is alright or not. It looks decent on page though.
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Re: Time to tip the scales! Tactician 'I win' buttons (Splash + Analyze Weakness/Enemy Evaluation)

Post by K Peculier » Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:04 pm

I'm not talking about the other tactician class skills. I'm solely talking about dark eyes being able to build tactics ranks without consequence and splash being 1 momentum.

Other talk about OTHER tactician skills are irrelevant in this thread.

Analyze Weakness and Enemy Evaluation does not even need to be nerfed at all as it is still main class and otherwise requires actual effort and skill to build up without the use of Dark Eyes and charge order shenanigans.
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Re: Time to tip the scales! Tactician 'I win' buttons (Splash + Analyze Weakness/Enemy Evaluation)

Post by Snake » Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:53 pm

I don't really see a huge problem with Dark Eyes, especially in Tactics Rank building.

Still, if the speed of the Rank build-up is way, way too fast, mayhaps an easy fix to the speed they can build it up is limiting the spell 'Dark Eyes' to spawn only one mob per skill use, up to a maximum of 3, and attach a 1 round cooldown to it. And of course, since this will start getting costy, reduce the FP cost by half, and increase the deploy range to 5 range.

What would be fun is that if you kill a Dark Eye, you receive a status buff that removes Analyze Weakness, Enemy Evaluation and Dark Eye, and grants immunity to them for 4 rounds. It will make the Tactician be more careful with where they'll want to position their eyes.

As for Splash, de-facto problem is that it does way too much for something that's just 1M. I'd prefer it to change the M cost to 3M, and have the Soaked duration reduced to 2 rounds, from the absurd 10.
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Re: Time to tip the scales! Tactician 'I win' buttons (Splash + Analyze Weakness/Enemy Evaluation)

Post by Spoops » Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:30 pm

I'm gonna be posting a lot but please do consider everything here.

A lot of the issues I find with Tactician at the current moment is that it currently serves as a better mage class than both of the mage subclasses, it has insanely strong damage when paired up with the fan tomes, and while I could see -some- evoker spells throwing out just a bit more damage than tact spells, they do not come with the amazing effects such as Soaked/Multi target from anywhere/Titan Ghost/Hesitation etc.

For this reason I think that Tactician's overall damage needs to be lowered, they currently mostly scale up to 140% Elemental ATK, and because of their effects I think they need to be lowered by about 20% globally, 140% for most skills goes to 120%, 150% from domino goes to 130%. (The only skill I'd exempt from this is Frigid Formation.)

As for splash, its incredibly efficient, I'd like to see its damage lowered first off though, it has the highest damage out of any 1m skill currently that inflicts a status that lasts like 8 rounds :?:

After you've solved their damage then you move on to Dark Eyes and Enemy Evaluation, Enemy Evaluation needs to change severely, its a percentage decrease in some vital stats, and we all know how good percentage increases or decreases are, especially so to stats that hit really high amounts like Evade/Hit/Crit, not even to mention the damage debuff which hurts EVERYONE in the game, this is a crippling debuff that literally decides fights, there's no recovery from this unless you happen to roll it away with negotiate (Good luck with hunted/dark eyes/soaked on you at all times) or you have Obscure, which comes from 1 class and costs a huge amount of FP for something that can be re-applied very easily.

-Dark Eyes should be changed to have 1HP at every rank, similarly to butterflies where they are kept in check against AoE.
-Enemy Evaluation should be changed to a flat amount, which would be something like decreasing Evade/Crit Evade/Hit by 10 + Rank*5 + Tactics Rank, no more decreasing damage.
-Enemy Evaluation should probably not last so long, about 5 duration flat would probably suffice.

And finally I'd like to tip the scales a bit more on the support side, their orders and formations are somewhat weak, barring charge order, but a lot of the mage side of tactician has driven underlying salt for the class which might shoot me some funny looks for asking this.

I'd like to see Cast Order gain some damage so that its useful, attack order gain some hit or start working on skills as well, and guard order give a special type of guard that doesn't reduce evade.
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Re: Time to tip the scales! Tactician 'I win' buttons (Splash + Analyze Weakness/Enemy Evaluation)

Post by K Peculier » Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:15 pm

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