I hate fun (Offhand On crit Pt2)

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EenKogNeeto
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I hate fun (Offhand On crit Pt2)

Post by EenKogNeeto » Sat Apr 27, 2019 10:53 pm

When using certain on-hit weapons, and most on-crit weapons in your offhand, your main-hand weapon can apply the effect as if it were that weapon. Example being: Atlatuas Abaniko applying silence, Guitar doing AOE sound damage, so on and so forth.
This is mostly an issue in two cases of increasing severity: When using handguns (As you get to proc it multiple times when it probably was based around only happening once), and leadstorm (As you get to proc it multiple times on multiple people)

The main reason I see this as an issue instead of a fun mechanical thing is...Using a guitar offhand and a quickdraw mainhand, you can fly into the enemy team and do two hundred damage to all of them assuming a single member of their team hasn't stacked crit evade high enough to resist you. And this multiplies by the number of people not immune to crits on a given team potentially leading to an instance where a single person can instantly kill a four-person party, despite not being able to win against any of them on an individual level.

What should happen: Only applicable if you actually hit them with that weapon, same as MLM being changed to only give its crit damage to itself.

I would be lying if I didn't explicitly give some people the idea to use this knowing it would probably need to be fixed, and the reason it's here rather than bug reports is... It's working as intended, so a balance fu was required instead.

Other noteworthy fun uses are using a jackhammer to silence the entire enemy team at the start of combat even without leadstorm, Using two guitars to shred super hard when you do the special attack with an axe while surrounded, and so on and so forth.

Sorry dark bard, but six hundred total damage with only one person on a three man team getting hit is a biiiiit much.

PS: And all this doesn't even begin to describe how effective it is in PVE.

-------

Rather than edit and restructure this post I'll leave it for the sake of other peoples arguments having context.

This edit is because I have done further testing and found that Abaniko and other on crit weapons do not interact the same way with a mainhand weapon. It's ONLY the guitar that works this way that i've found after testing everything from Anchor Edge to Tarnada to Abaniko. Which I feel makes it quite obviously something that should be changed to bring it in line with every other weapon.

TESTED AND DOES NOT PROC ON MAINHAND
Anchor Edge: On Critical: Inflict Immobilize for 2 Rounds.
Skullcaver: On Critical: UL/2% chance to inflict Stun.
Thornshooter: On Critical: Immobilizes the target for 2 Rounds.
Abaniko: On Critical: UL% chance of inflicting Silence for 2 Rounds.
HOTG: On Critical: UL% chance to inflict Knockdown for 2 rounds.
MLM: On Crit: If target is Feared and is a non-boss Monster, they are instantly killed.
Ryeser: On Critical: Reduces the target's Momentum by 1 if they do not resist Lightning damage, to a minimum of 3 Momentum.
Tarnada: On Critical: UL% chance of casting Vydel, for free.

PROCS ON MAINHAND:
FULLY - Guitar: On Critical: Inflicts unresistable Sound damage to all enemies in 5 Range equal to this weapon's Power.
SOMETIMES - Deadly Smile* (Tested by Lolzytripd): On Critical: If target is feared, inflict Knockdown.

*Only works in certain situations apparently

The others were untested because they tend to be fairly unused and you get the picture by now. Feel free to grab stuff like an Abberation spear and check yourself.
Last edited by EenKogNeeto on Tue May 07, 2019 2:18 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: I hate fun (Offhand On crit Pt2)

Post by Spoops » Sat Apr 27, 2019 11:17 pm

I don't really see it as much of an issue currently, I've faced off against these builds in a pvp scenario and because of physical DRs I only took at most 9 damage from the sound proc of an electric guitar, not to mention how fun it is with gimmicks like salamander sword.

Infact I think the only abuse of this scenario was with the moonlight mercy itself, as it added a load of damage to the quickdraw on crits (and critting with a quickdraw is extremely hard to begin with)

Not to mention the scenario you brought up is so improbable that I hardly foresee it being a large deal either.

The only issue here is the amount of AoE you can do with electric guitar + skills like Lead Storm and Widespin, perhaps even sidecut.

This is just sounding like a case of actually just hating fun and/or being salty about something that isn't actually an issue, could be wrong, but this is what I think.

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Re: I hate fun (Offhand On crit Pt2)

Post by EenKogNeeto » Sat Apr 27, 2019 11:22 pm

Spoops wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 11:17 pm
This is just sounding like a case of actually just hating fun and/or being salty about something that isn't actually an issue, could be wrong, but this is what I think.
Mildly salty that my team took 100 damage each because I wasn't evasive/crit evasive enough like they were. 200 Is just the typical exaggerations (I took 200 damage from the single leadstorm but that was because of bullets with the sound damage, not JUST sound)

Expecting everyone to have hundred+ crit evade or their team suffers is kinda rough.

Just to note it was never a spur of the moment 'Reee nerf this' thing I had known and considered it OP for a lot longer than anyone actually used it in a build, and it took me a few days to get around to making the thread in Bug report after I saw it finally used.

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Re: I hate fun (Offhand On crit Pt2)

Post by Snake » Sat Apr 27, 2019 11:24 pm

On the other hand. (Heh.)

I love fun. (Heh.)

I disagree with the things posted here, solely because this accident made a nice feature for the game, and gave those weapons an extra utility. This, compared to Moonlight Mercy? This is nothing. MLM + Quickdraw was the only weapon which we would bat an eye and frown because 1200 damage in one round was the true absurdity of those. That was hands down an impossible-to-beat setup.

The rest? They're just scattered gimmicks. You absolutely can dodge against this setup, since wielding two hands makes you not benefit from Steady, which makes you lose hit. If you wanted to hit, you'd be having Borneblood for an enchant, which makes you lose crit, if you wanted crit on those, Vorpal enchant, so no hit. And then we add 'Demon Hunter' to the fray, a class that doesn't give any statistics to the character. No bonus hit, no bonus crit, no bonus nada, further making this set more niche.

The counter-argument for those is that I 'dare' you use a Jackhammer against people in PvP and not die horribly when they're packing Kensei, Spirit Mirrors, high Dodge, high Crit Evade (new meta!), and any other type of gun sucking hardcore ass if they're not Rifles or Crazy Coyote. You speak as if there's no counterplay, or if everybody is your classic chubby Monk/Hexer who sits down with nothing but high DEF/RES, no crit evade and no Evade at all and expect to not be bursted.

That's their choice.

So nah, not really. I don't see why this should be changed. This "Six Hundred Damage" of yours seems a little too far-fetched and if you could provide a more solid evidence, I'd be all ears to change my opinion.
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Re: I hate fun (Offhand On crit Pt2)

Post by Trexmaster » Sat Apr 27, 2019 11:36 pm

It is fantastic in PvE, that much goes without saying. I speak as one of the people who used this after Moonlight Mercy got gutted for the same reason.

Strictly speaking of its PvE effectiveness:
It does need to be toned down, but the setup requires being able to hit and crit PvE mobs consistently and generally ends up very much not tanky at all in exchange for being able to hit/crit higher level mobs. Many, many people have complained of how tanky mobs in PvE end up getting later on, so we've ended up in a very polarized environment where we have some strategies that absolutely curbstomp PvE like the one mentioned in the OP, and the average person struggling to get decent clear times if they haven't optimized their build to deal with the insanely ramping up armor + DR.

The effect could simply be reduced for weapons that aren't the guitar so as to not completely remove the interaction all together. Since personally I'm getting tired of the pattern of entirely removing playstyles that are effective in PvE whilst offering zero alternatives until far later down the road. It makes me afraid to tell people how to make their build more effective in PvE for fear of someone deciding to be the whistle blower (like this thread) and having it get axed for being the most effective method.

Things like Umbrals being able to infinitely use Fade Out to prevent non-boss mobs from ever taking a turn with proper FP management or playing at night, or map-wide spells like Enma's Summons and Divine Shower making clear speed much more bearable in Spacey dungeons, or any dungeon with enough casters.

I'm going on a bit of a tangent here, but I seriously think we need to start thinking more about ways to make PvE fun and enjoyable rather than witch-hunting everything that makes it more bearable. All I hear are complaints from people who have played the game more than a month or two about PvE, and how it's basically just a gateway to making a character ready to PvP and interact with the world at large. That whole argument's for another thread though, I just think it's relevant when we're being faced with another potential nerf bat to an effective means of clearing most fights in PvE.

Back to the topic at hand, I'll simply list out the pros and cons of using a Quickdraw + Electric Axe build.

Pros:
Can instantly clear fights with the right setup and good (90-100%+) Hit and Critical chance.
Insane DPS with enough mobs nearby.
Deals Phys DR ignoring damage per critical hit.

Cons:
Suffers against mobs with innately high evade at later levels (Vorpal Rabbits, Corpse Hands, Feathered Serpent)
Is god awful against single mobs at higher levels such as bosses without enough adds to compensate.
Sacrifices defenses in order to deal optimal damage at higher levels. If the mobs live, you're probably going to die very quickly.
Uses a gun. Forgeries will annihilate you as fast as you kill them unless you're only fighting one and you've silenced it/can damage race it.
---------

Now, as for it's effectiveness in PvP.....
It's heavily shackled down by the fact it uses a gun. Guns are the most polarized weapon in the game in PvP. Having used this setup in PvP as well (MLM era), I can tell you having the hit and crit to deal consistent damage was not common. I could only take wins against builds that lacked crit evade and weren't dodgy enough to mitigate the damage I could do.

You're right, the infamous Burn Up > Winged Serpent > Lead Storm could be devastating in a team fight, but a Quickdraw Guitar isn't going to kill anyone in PvP. Unless the enemy team is full of idiots/sub optimally built players. All it takes is one Kensei and you deal 0 damage or better, kill yourself instantly. Even then, it's trivial to build the evade or crit evade needed to totally block out a QD/Guitar's ability to hit or crit.

Let me put it into numbers.

With my heavily offense oriented Quickdraw + Guitar build, I see about 110-120 Critical and roughly 250-260~ Hit. I cannot afford to put up buffs to boost these numbers outside either Scharfe or Focused Mind for minor bonuses to either Crit or Hit, and a rush setup would not do either of these.

With just Boneheart and the LUC you'd expect from a dodgy build (50 scaled) my Critical has already dipped to 45% or lower. The average Evade you see on dodgy builds is around 200-220 before buffs, so I'd have equally poor chances to hit an Evade centric build.

If my target is either a Demon Hunter, a Kensei, or a Black Knight, I've effectively already lost. Kensei can negate bullets entirely, BK can drop my Critical to 0, and Demon Hunter is a soft counter nowadays with Bullet Barrier, but enough that they can easily race me the remainder of the way from mitigating 25-30% of my attacks if not more if I fail to crit. To a lesser degree, Bonder/GS and Priest/LB will win if they get a turn due to their crit evade.
Suffice to say, I don't think gutting the Electric Guitar will have any impact at all on the effectiveness of this setup in PvP. It'll do worse in its optimal environment (fighting people with 0 evade/crit evade) and be thrown into the pile of weapons that never see use as they serve absolutely no purpose whatsoever.

If anything it's another reason to pack Critical Evade or use Critical. We're running out of reasons to basic attack as is.

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Re: I hate fun (Offhand On crit Pt2)

Post by Lolzytripd » Sun Apr 28, 2019 3:30 pm

I agree with spoops, kunai and trex.

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Re: I hate fun (Offhand On crit Pt2)

Post by EenKogNeeto » Tue May 07, 2019 12:57 am

https://pastebin.com/UwSgmQ2i

Here's a pastebin of the offhand guitar doing 200+ damage to two teammates with every actual shot getting redirected elsewhere.
Much balance. Very gud. Actively punishes use of magnetic shield if you arent immune to crits.

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Re: I hate fun (Offhand On crit Pt2)

Post by Snake » Tue May 07, 2019 1:12 am

...Where is your crit evade against a gun with 80%~ crit?...

What...

What are your classes...?

Do you uhh, want some build or gear-up tips there, mate? Seeing those tears over a really dumb choice is kind of making me feel a lot of pity right now. I'll try my best to help you stop whining over something that's completely fine.

Here goes atleast two items that may interest you, and that will make you return about 350 damage to any Quickdraw user.
Bellplate. 10*. Dropped by Level 56+ Forgery mobs.
Fang-Faced Shield. 10*. Dropped by Level 56+ Critter mobs.
Brighten, from Curate, can be stolen by Spellthief and used.
Have fun no longer crying about this. And please stop crying about this, it's getting annoying.
Last edited by Snake on Tue May 07, 2019 1:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I hate fun (Offhand On crit Pt2)

Post by Miller » Tue May 07, 2019 1:18 am

EenKogNeeto wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 12:57 am
https://pastebin.com/UwSgmQ2i

Here's a pastebin of the offhand guitar doing 200+ damage to two teammates with every actual shot getting redirected elsewhere.
Much balance. Very gud. Actively punishes use of magnetic shield if you arent immune to crits.
I'd read Trex's post on the matter but uh.

First of all, this set up requires you to actually crit and it's spread across multiple rounds. To put it simply, any decent amount of crit evade will basically neuter a good chunk of the damage.

Tanks with no crit evade should expect to be shot down by most basic hit builds. (Not to mention you're basically encouraging getting shot by this with a Magnetic Shield.)

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Re: I hate fun (Offhand On crit Pt2)

Post by Grandpa » Tue May 07, 2019 1:22 am

EenKogNeeto wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 12:57 am
https://pastebin.com/UwSgmQ2i

Here's a pastebin of the offhand guitar doing 200+ damage to two teammates with every actual shot getting redirected elsewhere.
Much balance. Very gud. Actively punishes use of magnetic shield if you arent immune to crits.
We're still in that fight. Maybe you should focus on that before adding to the balance fu thread.

Yeah, I'm gonna pop in to say that shooting the other two people on your team actually nearly killed me when you weren't around them.

You killed your team by not having crit evade.

Also these numbers are actually just incorrect.
You took about 189.
Church Knight took about 164.
Brute took 205.

As Snake said, the following items:
Bellplate. 10*. Dropped by Level 56+ Forgery mobs.
Fang-Faced Shield. 10*. Dropped by Level 56+ Critter mobs.
Brighten, from Curate, can be stolen by Spellthief and used.
Can and have been used to directly counter this. In those situations I more or less struggle to do anything, as you would have noticed happening to the Church Knight, had you been looking at the fight. I tried shooting him and he had both a fang-faced shield and crit evade, so, I pretty much just died and did nothing useful.
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