I hate fun (Offhand On crit Pt2)

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WaifuApple
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Re: I hate fun (Offhand On crit Pt2)

Post by WaifuApple » Tue May 07, 2019 2:59 pm

You're trying to argue that it should be nerfed despite being easily counterable because counters don't matter.(heck, you don't need a build dedicated to countering it, you just need a crit evade build in general, which is all purpose crit denial. Not having that will get you ripped to shreds by crits anyway).

By that logic, does everything need nerfing just because it can destroy people that don't have the capacity to deal with it?

No?

Well, neither does this. It's a simple thing. If you're not prepared for it, chances are you'll lose. This is a case of you not being prepared or Scissors meeting Rock and saying rock needs to become sponge instead because scissors can't beat it. The damage itself isn't even actually that remarkable either.
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Re: I hate fun (Offhand On crit Pt2)

Post by DoctorMad » Tue May 07, 2019 3:45 pm

WaifuApple wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 2:59 pm
You're trying to argue that it should be nerfed despite being easily counterable because counters don't matter.(heck, you don't need a build dedicated to countering it, you just need a crit evade build in general, which is all purpose crit denial. Not having that will get you ripped to shreds by crits anyway).

By that logic, does everything need nerfing just because it can destroy people that don't have the capacity to deal with it?

No?

Well, neither does this. It's a simple thing. If you're not prepared for it, chances are you'll lose. This is a case of you not being prepared or Scissors meeting Rock and saying rock needs to become sponge instead because scissors can't beat it. The damage itself isn't even actually that remarkable either.
I do see the counterargument here, but it seems a bit disingenuous.

This isn't something you need to counter to survive better, this is something everyone in a team has to build for, otherwise they sabotage their teammates.
Its a pretty strong interaction for that reason.
Everyone in a team has to counter it, otherwise it slips by and starts damaging the rest of the team. Doesn't make sense to me.

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Re: I hate fun (Offhand On crit Pt2)

Post by Lolzytripd » Tue May 07, 2019 4:08 pm

It's not like this even the 'optimal' gun strat of electric guitar.

It mutates into a gun and does electric damage, think for a moment...rain trap....wild ride....soaked status.....lightning damage....

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Re: I hate fun (Offhand On crit Pt2)

Post by WaifuApple » Tue May 07, 2019 4:16 pm

The reason this damage is so bad is because he sabotaged them himself. He had something to attract the bullets away from his crit evade friends, leading to an amount of damage less significant than it looks. Without that, I assure you the damage numbers would be lower, more in line with your standard autohit AFTER the autohit's damage reduction. (except you have to pass a hit AND crit check to get it off).
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Re: I hate fun (Offhand On crit Pt2)

Post by Trexmaster » Tue May 07, 2019 6:39 pm

Against my better judgement, I'll address a few of the new issues that have cropped up.
1. Not building crit evade or evade against this setup will actively detriment your team.
Correct. This is not exclusive to this build, as lacking defenses against mechanics that abuse having multiple targets (Claret Call, Nachbeben, Lead Storm, Charm, Confusion), or having multiple targets in appropriate distance/position (A few of the previous effects, Shell Effects, Any AoE really, Domino Resonate, Splash/Soaked) will punish you and your team/whoever is unfortunate enough to be in range.

I do not think the MG-esque splash damage on crit should be an exemption and removed entirely. As I stated before, if anything it should only have its raw damage tuned down, but given the requirement for it to occur it's far less reliable than the damage you may see from Magic Gunner.

It's unfortunate, but it's the nature of the game's current state that you can potentially be faced with a hazard to your entire team and be unable to act if you lack the base CEL to do so if you did not premeditate said threat and counter it in advance (I.E. swapping to a Boneheart Bellplate + Fang-faced Shield and equipping BK if you lacked the base LUC + FAI or CEL to have the needed Crit Evade/Evade).

By no means am I encouraging people to start hardcore metagaming each other, but there will come times where you will be a detriment to your team just for the sole fact that you exist as an enemy target to bounce off lethal effects/boost enemy offensive buffs, and you'll have to adjust accordingly.
2. I shouldn't have to be a BK or <x> just to deal with this, so it should be nerfed.
A lot of what I was seeing was tossing away all the things that made this setup broken to begin with, Quickdraw for example, and claiming them to be irrelevant. You can't say 'Quickdraw combined with an Electric Axe is overbearing!' then say 'Quickdraw isn't relevant to this.'
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Yes, it could potentially be an issue with other means to make multiple (critical) attacks in a round, but save using Akimbo to get as many shots with two Autopistols, Quickdraw and by extension Gun weapons in general are extremely relevant to the balance of this setup.

I will not say I do not see your point, but as it stands nothing else in the game can make remotely as many attacks as Gun weapons can, and until we start seeing daggers that can make 6+ attacks in 3m Guns are what the Electric Axe is going to be best abused with.

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I believe you may have misunderstood. What Miller meant was that you have to roll your Crit chance for every attack you make at the odds you have, thus having Crit Evade will make it exponentially more likely you will cause more critical hits to fail as they have to succeed several times in order to maximize the effect. It is true that not everyone can build for Crit Evade, but not everyone should be able to counter everything--which is to say, people shouldn't be able to cover all defenses flawlessly whilst also building their offensive stats as high as they can go.

If you want to cover your Crit Evade deficit, you'll have to shuffle some points around from other stats. This is not mutually exclusive to this setup either, as lacking other defenses (Status Resistance, Evade, Defense, Resistance) will cause you and subsequently your team to suffer from their offensive counterparts just as much if not more.

Unless you cover every single defense, there will typically be a way to completely shut you down if someone built for it. This does not imply you need every defense to not get killed instantly, as not everyone you fight is going to be packing what's necessary to accomplish that.
I'll just say that with how polarized Guns are, I will find it hard to say this setup is overpowered in PvP until we have a means of making an equal amount of attacks with non-Gun weapons. Not to say that should happen, but the Electric Axe relies on the sheer number of hits Guns can make to breech into meta levels of damage in its optimal environment, and that can be trivially stopped if someone decides to metagame it.

Closer to the topic at hand, I think that weapons/items with On Crit effects that are intended to apply to all weapons equipped should specifically denote the fact rather than making it arbitrary/accidental, that way it can easily be reported if a rogue On Crit effect is applying where it shouldn't or isn't where it should.

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Re: I hate fun (Offhand On crit Pt2)

Post by EenKogNeeto » Thu May 09, 2019 2:48 am

Currently grinds the server to a halt when someone leadstorms in PVE with it.
The normal operation of the axe or normal operation of Leadstorm works fine, but when it has to calculate all the procs it gets slow and everyone suffers.
This could be fixed by optimizing it but worth noting here.

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Re: I hate fun (Offhand On crit Pt2)

Post by Noxid » Thu May 09, 2019 4:28 am

Whatever the solution is it should be stated clearly on the weapon itself so it isn't some esoteric thing.

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Re: I hate fun (Offhand On crit Pt2)

Post by Lolzytripd » Thu May 09, 2019 6:54 am

Not really a reason to nerf it, soaked+ leadstorm+ chainshell and volcanic seed+ lead tempest lag more.

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